Thread: A view to a Raid...

Hi folks here's the AAR from the Fahrig/Fire Alliance raid on the lv 55 Raid Boss mob outside Hunters Village 22 Jan 05. (Funky looking Minotaur dude)

Cut and paste from the FN members section:

Ok folks time for a quick after action review (AAR) from todays Raid with the Fire Alliance.

Here are a few points in no particular order please post your observations as well so that we will not have to make the same mistakes.

1. There was a bit of a commotion in forming groups. I think I may have mentioned this but when a raid is posted this is why its important that ppl put their names down as attending or not. This allows the Raid leader to form groups on paper and post them up for everyone to see. When we all arive in the assemby area (AA) any minor adjustments can be made a lot faster. There will always be stragglers and last minute arrivals so there will still be a fair bit of time wasted on sorting out those ppl.

2. The Route to the FUP. When we began to move it was a bit sudden and not everyone jumped off on the mark. Some ppl weren't sure of the loc of the mob and went wandering accordingly. As a result there was a bit more time wasted getting ppl to the forming up place (FUP)

3. Once in the FUP. There was a fair bit of time taken to pre-position folks. This was done reasonably smoothly and I don't think we'll be any quicker on the first few tries ourselves. It takes time before ppl become spacially aware and work out where they have to be.

4. The Tank team was the one I was involved in - please post on what your teams did. The prep was quick for the tanks but some fundamentals were missed.

a. The tank order was not established - so as soon as the MT ran out of MP there was a pregnant pause before I finally got aggro on me. In that time the boss mob went for a bit of a wander. Once I ran out of mana the same thing happened and more ppl got trounced. I don't know who regained aggro after me because it wasn't announced in group.

b. Aggro control the MT was lv 55 and had all the appropriate aggression skills maxed. He pulled aggro ok and held it reasonably solidly untill he ran out of MP.
Things to note here are:
- MT did not call for assist or anything.
- we did not wait at least the 30 seconds whilst MT is under UD and using his potions, before engaging the mob. Eveyone piled in 11 sec after mob was engaged and the healer started healing from first hit. The healers in our group were the only ones that died.
- ensure you are as far away from the mob as possible when engaging it. IOT to do this you must be out of range (OOR) to the mob and once the MT calls assist you do so. You will find that because you are OOR you will move only as far as max melee range to start landing hits on the mob. This is the optimum spot.
- no SS spam from anyone but the MT untill Mob is at least at 70% health
- no BSPS spam untill the mob is at 40% health
- Specials such as Gladi sonics and the like go in at 10% of mobs health
- use group buffs if the tank group is debuffed, ensure the buffer stands directly behind the tank he is buffing so that the mob does not move but simply changes target. It is easy for a knight to get aggro back that way.
- if MT loses aggro for any reason EVERYONE is to CEASE attacking instantly whilst the MT spams Aggression onto the mob. If you have charm or similar de-aggro skills this is the time to spam them. Do not heal the person getting hit! They will either deaggro themselves or die, this will stop the domino effect of the mob bouncing from person to person. Once the mob is back on the MT and aggression re-established the MT will call re-assist. At this point its safe to res any pers who died to overaggro.

c. No provision was made for mob special atks. In this case the mob used a personal based (PB) AOE debuff which stripped all buffs within half melee range (~100). It is highly likely that a lot of the boss mobs will do this so in the future once we know this we'll adjust with Overlord or Warcryer buffs. Overlord are best because they aggro least. In addition the mob was using an AOE stun, again within half melee range. The danger here is that when the MT is stunned the rest of the raid is still doing damage to the mob, this eats into the aggro margin that the MT has over the raid and may cause a premature loss of aggro. IOT compensate, call the stuns and everyone is to immediately cease attacking as per loss of aggro.

Some additional stats:
MT was lv 55 and had 825p.def unbuffed. He was taking 300-400 pts of damage from the mob per hit. I think this is enough to work out a healing rotation.
The mob launched its first spell 30 sec into the fight. I'm not 100% sure on the numbers but I thought it used is specials as - 5 stuns and at least 3 debuffs which means that its proccing about 1 special every 60 sec. If anyone else counted these please let me know.
The MT ran out of MP in approx 2 min 40 sec, he got some recharge which allowed him to tank for another min. I had enough mana to tank for 3 min after which all hell broke lose as the mob ran amok and was unceremonious bludgeoned to death by the remainder of the raid.

I noticed that when all the buffs are stripped my Guard Stance was still up and was not stripped. Neither were my cubics which bobbed along happily and did their work.

The fight lasted just over 8 minutes

Posted by Malitia on 13 Jan 05.

Hello all,

Well, we did go out last night, and w/ a group we did fight raid boss Tirak. It wasnt the turn-out I expected, but we had a total of 10 people, so we were able to conduct our experiments.
What we learned from that raid.
- We learned that the silence IS level 99, and its messege states its a specific penalty only against those people who are 8 levels higher then the raid boss.
- We learned that the current level of cancel in Lineage2, even w/ BlessedSpS is not able to cancel this ailment, and we also learned that it DOES wear off, it just takes about 20min-25min.
- We learned that silence is ONLY cast on a person 8 levels or higher that casts magic. If you dont cast, you wont be silenced.
- We learned that it doesnt matter whether a person is in the party, or out of the party, the agro is still the same, and the silence will still be targetted to the person who is casting, or heal-assisting.
- We learned that you WILL keep buffs if you buff beforehand. Any area-of-effect erases buff spells are raid-boss specific; same as a Mirror does, or a Validus does.
- We learned that the mobs ARE fast, but not super-insane too fast. Once again this will be raid boss specific. A light elf w/ WW2 could outrun Tirak, I almost outran them, and was able to run them off agro, w/out falling below 600HP.
- We learned that the raid boss A.I. is FAR more advanced then regular monsters. If the monster senses any hint of alternate threat other then the main tank, it will seek it out, and kill it.
- We learned that if you are more then 8 levels higher then the Raid Boss, you will suffer a huge P.ATT penalty. I was hitting it for 18damage at my leve. Ravenwind, an Elf Scout in Tirak's level range, was critting him for 200 damage.
- We learned that the mobs gain no P.ATT bonus against higher level players.
- We learned that each boss will have its own special attacks. Tirak landed an A.o.E. root on everyone w/in range, and he attempted an AoE poison, or weakness(the graphic looks the same, but it did not land on me, so I dont know. I do know, tho, that I never seen anyone in the party poisoned after it was cast, so that leaves me to think Weakness).
- We learned that if the raid bosses wish to be properly ran, then EACH class needs to be used as what they are. That means you dont have archers trying to run around and kite it, while prophets try to root it, or sub-standard tank methods like that. An Archer is a Damage Dealer, thats what they do. A prophet before the fight is a buffer, during the fight, they hit things, or if I could get it done, then stand in the back, and just start casting root on everything, to ensure that no mobs get lose and start running around.
- We learned that the raid bosses are no where near as invincible as I personally originally thought. The possibilty to take one is real, providing 2 groups of people are properly formed up.
- We learned that if you cast heal in agro range of a raid boss he will agro you.(whether this is caused by the fact that he previously agro'd you or not, is undetermined, but he did agro a party member of ours, while the Raid Boss was in passive mode, when she self-healed, and it killed her).

What we didnt get to test. We never got to see if the raid bosses can be slept, or rooted. That was pretty important, so we will have to try that if there is ever a next time. We also never got to try a 2ndary tank, which in the event Agro is lost, that he will Hate-Aura, or Single-target-Agression any stragglers.

A high PDEF tank, and a good group of bishops, shillien/elven elders, and then the rest of the party attacking, and a 2ndary tank for backup, and a raid boss, w/in level range can be killed, I've no doubt. But people would have to learn their skills and use them. That means all your skills. Spellsingers not using their Surrender to water skill when they are faced against a really tough mob to them, is just crazy. Or not using a D.o.T. against a monster that melee and magic spells seem to take a long time on, is also a major faux pas. D.o.T.'s are brutally damaging, their only flaw is that it is not instant, but if you cast that first, and then go back to DDing the monster, overall you are getting to get a very good damage return. Bottom line is, people need to know each of their skills, whether it seems usefull or not, its there for a reason, and we should be utilizing it.
Also if a tank draws agro, then let him run it off. Unless he requests it, dont heal him, or hit the mob. I was able to run off the agro after a while, anyone aggrivating the mob while I'm doing that, will catch agro, and most likely die.

Anyway thats just a quick rundown to coincide w/ Ellyrions FAQ. If anyone wants to post any feedback regarding the Panther raid that was held, and what was noticed, then please add it to this thread. We can also take this newfound knowledge and apply it to our past experiences. We said that we failed the raid on the Ant Queen but we didnt. I dont know if anyone in attendance at that raid watched the Queen ant's HP or not when we were all hitting it, but I did. And it didnt move. And I dont mean it went down slowly, I mean from her full HP, it did NOT move, w/ 3 groups of the Fahrig nation hitting her. This was because we had higher levels trying to kill a low level boss, and we obviously were punished w/ that P.ATT penalty. The mobs down(ant guards, etc) there aren't super strong, they are the same as they always were, same HP, same PDEF, ect. Its just WE became weak when we tried to kill them because of the High-levels-attacking penalty.

Also, this thread is an information thread only... I'm asking that we keep the opinions, or criticisms out of it.
I knew that Tirak was low level, I can read the Lvl28 above his head. I knew the silence was high level, and I knew that cancel was not going to work. I knew that there was going to be a penalty for attacking a low level Raid boss. All that stuff is pretty obvious, its not rocket science. But until someone goes out there and TRIES it, then all we have is a bunch of opinions. Trying things is the only way we know for sure... if we didnt have that, we as people would get no where. I think its pretty obvious that tonnes upon tonnes of metal, if you put it in the air in the form of an airplane is going to plummet to the earth; but it doesnt. They fly. Because someone tried something, despite the fact of how unrealistic it was to put mass amounts of metal into the air, and figured out a way to make it happen. He figured out that it just needs a lot of speed. But he didnt know that before, and he got his fair share of Lvl 99 silences as well.

I'll see you all in game.

Ok found my FAQ;

Hi folks,
This is gleamed from my old EQguild RAID FAQ dating back to 9 April 2002.

I reworked it a tad for L2, and left it somewhat general atm. We will fill in the details as they firm up when we begin to raid in earnest. I'm sure everyone will have lots to contribute to round out this into a solid standard operating procedure (SOP).

GENERAL RAID FAQ

1. Do I have to come to all Fahrig raids?
No. We are not a 'raiding' guild, so you aren't expected to raid 5 nights a week. If you can't make a raid due to RL stuff, or just because you couldn't be arsed, don't sweat it. Do drop a note to say you can't make it when the raid roster is posted up.

2. I'm online, but I'd prefer to XP, rather than raid. Do I have to raid?
90% of the time, no. Its encouraged that everyone who can come to a raid does, since it helps guild cohesiveness, and more people means easier/ faster kills, and a better chance of nice lewt for us. However - don't feel stressed if you want to do something else.
Of course, there is always an exception. Some raids we need everyone - so occasionally everyone online may be called. These are exceptions tho.

3. When should I be at a raid?
Ideally 15 minutes before the raid start - this gives the leader time to organize/finalise groups.

4. Can non-FN people come on the raid?
Probably. Confirm with the raid leader beforehand tho - they have the final yes/no say.

5. How do I get in a group?
The raid leader will use the event attendance post in the forums to create preliminary groups and post them prior to the event. These will then fill automatically in as ppl turn up at the event and search out their nominated group leader (GL). Any additional ppl or latecomers will contact a nominated Fahrig Officer who will fill in the raid roster as required.

6. How do I get buffs?
Advise your group leader that you need buffs, they will get them for you from the nominated clan buffers. DO NOT PM BUFFERS directly as they may be busy.

7. What buffs do I need?
It depends on your job in the raid so I’ll let Arek write this bit up as he will be a bit better informed who needs what at higher levels. (N.B. unlike EQ when the mobs strip your buffs they take the lot so at this stage there does not appear to be any need for a buff order.

8. Who is the MA? What is the MT? Who is the SA?
The MA is the Main Assist, the person whom everyone will assist when called to. The MT is the Main Tank and they are the ones who will engage the Raid boss Mob. Generally the MT will also be the MA, however there are circumstances where there the main boss has to be tanked simultaneously with the boss’ minions and therefore someone else will me MA IOT kill the minions first. The SA is the secondary assist, this will be the person who manages adds from Raid boss minions when the MT is also MA and will back up the MA when they are separate from the MT.
I will add a section a little later on how to restructure comms WRT to having chat channels as well as ventrilo.

9. What is this positioning stuff?
Mobs have facings/arcs, if you attack from a flank or rear arc you are attacking a lower mob p.def therefore making the mob easier to hit and doing more damage per hit. Some classes like the daggers will have special skills designed specifically for this purpose. Ideally therefore, in a static encounter the best positioning would be to have the MT in front of the mob, the daggers behind it and the rest of the melee’s at 90 degrees to the MT on the mobs flank. The casters/archers will be positioned behind the melee DD’s at max range and the healers off to the side so that they are in range of both the MT and as much of the DD/Caster/Archer group as possible.
Of course, there is a lot of information still to be filled in about a Raid boss mobs behaviour - but this will cover us for the first few fights.

10. How can I not get aggro?
a. Give the MT a bit of time to build up aggro, at this stage we believe that the 30 secs under UD should be enough to maintain aggro throughout the fight. Don't attack until MT calls for the assist. Remember the Raid boss mobs have a lot of HP so its going to be about aggro management as opposed to speed of DPS.

b. Don’t spam SS, SPS or BSPS from the start.

c. Be careful with DPS from overnuking or SA’d weapons early on in a fight, a few early crits will wreck the whole set up. The rule of thumb is no nuking untill Mob is at 80% and then maintain a low rate till mob at 50%, from 50 to 10% slowly increase rate, at 10% unleash hell.

d. Stand at the edge of the 'attack box'. Basically, stand as far away from the mob as you can, and still hit it. Distance does affect aggro, the closer you are to the mob, the more aggro you have. Raid Mobs have remarkably large fight boxes - use them.

11. How do we engage the Raid Boss ?
In most cases the Raid Boss mobs are just standing there in the open. The MTs will be easily able to aggo it themselves and bring the mob to the raid. There may be times however where the Raid Boss mob may be able to be positioned in a more favourable spot.
It does not appear that there is something such as pushback in the game but and the mobs appear to have reasonably long tethers, which means they can be moved into a more favourable position where perhaps the design of the local geometry can be used in our favour to avoid some of the Raid Boss mobs attacks/AoE’s.
It may also be possible to split off / apart the Raid Mobs minions IOT raduce the DPS on the MT and to allow them to be crowd controlled more easily. Whether by damage/offtanking by SA, root or sleep.
In order to effect this in the game it may be possible to form a “pull team” which has the feign death (FD) skill which allows them to temporarily lose mob aggro (if the skill works).
By this method it may be possible to isolate the Raid Boss or at least delay his minions sufficiently long that they can be easily engaged by two separate groups.
The knights (MTs) will be employing their innatetly higher p.def (due to Hvy Armour Mastery skewing) as well as Ultimate Defence (a knight specific skill) and healing potions to keep themselves alive during the initial 30 sec of the engagement.
Furthermore, in L2 the knights (DA, PAL, TK, SK) have a special skill called aggression. This skill in addition to their normal damage is designed to keep the mobs attention on them. (N.B. when a knight engages UD he is immobilized for 30 sec, if you pull the Boss mob off the knight during this time it will kill ppl and the knight may not be able to re-establish aggro which may wipe the raid).
The healers will use normal heals and escalate to SPS and BSPS heals as time and circumstances warrant.
The raid will assist the MA as called IOT kill off anything which will interfere with the killing of the Raid Boss. If the Boss is drawn into the EA alone then the MT will revert to MA and the Boss will be engaged as described above.
If there are adds then the raid will assist the nominated MA and kill those off first before concentrating on the main target.

12. AOE - Area of Affect
Many of the mobs we fight have some kind of Area of Effect capability. This means when it goes off, It affects every person within range. Nothing brings down a poorly equipped or prepared raid faster than AoE. Some seem to be resistable, some are not.
The way L2 appears to be doing boss mobs is that they seem to use abilities which are largely based on skills currently in game. The main encountered exception to this atm are the Perums in lv 2 CT which now have an ability to summon the player who aggros them first and who is beyond their melee range. This in itself is not the worst aspect of this ability, the worst part is that once they summon they clear their hate list and reaggro on the closest target.
If Raid Boss mobs are given this ability (and my guess is that the big ones will probably have this) then aggro management just got stepped up an order of magnitude in importance. Other than that we’ll go through all the known skills and edit into this post the AoE’s currently available in L2.

13. Communicating to the raid leader/pull team
Communication to the RL will only occur through your group leader who will escalate the message as required. The only other time you will pm the RL directly is during loot calls.

14. I have a question about something
All questions should go through your group leader, who will answer everything they can. If they can't answer it, they will send a pm to someone who can. Raid group leaders are picked because they know who to ask. Never spam channels or vent with questions use pm's if you really need to, try not to clutter up channels which will be used for instructions this includes Vent.

15. Equipment for Raiding
With the limited exposure to raid mobs, I can only suggest that these are going to be much longer fights so bring equipment which is geared towards P.def>Resists>HP>all other effects until such time as we can come up with a better L2 model. In all cases ensure you comply with the list of consumable items which was suggested earlier in this thread.

16. I died, what do I do now?
Do not release until advised that your corpse is irrecoverable. You may and probably will be asked to restart (drop to character selection and log-back in) IOT clear you off the mobs hate list. Advise your group leader ASAP if you dropped gear and ensure you have a reasonable idea of where you died. When the time comes for it a Rogue will pm you for information on where to recover your gear from with silent step.

More to follow in part 2

stupid word limits >< :p

Part 2 of FAQ

17. I'm late – how can I join the raid
If you arrive late you may not be able to follow the raid into an encounter before respawn occurs on the way to the fight spot.
You have 2 options.
Wait the encounter out and we may be able to swing back and pick you up,
OR load up WW2 and do a death run quaffing lots of healing pots, where you stop just short of the raid and let the mobs finish you off without aggroing the raid. We’ll then swing back and res you in.
(Option 2 is strictly for the hardcore and the headstrong, if you panic and get lost on the run into the fight spot, you will have to wait till the end of the raid for the corpse retrieval (CR). This may be a few hours.

18. Cool lewt dropped - do I have the merit to get it?
There is a system we’re working on WRT this. Watch this space.

Wow

Just awesome Elly.

Let everyone digest it

nice post!

num num what are we talking about


burp

as if anyone would read all that. rofl

Hehe I did but its mah job

Its acually really great info for people who have never raided before and want to know more about it, you should sticky this thread and renamed it so people know where to look, if not sticky this should be bookmarked for sure till people have enough experience under there belts to know it all off by heart. Doesnt take long for it all too sink in providing we raid on a constant basis.