1080P LCD TV. Advice needed

Page 1 of 2; 167 public posts in this discussion.

Post 1

Hi Guys,

I need some advice. As my house is very near completion, I'm in the market looking for a 1080p LCD tv.

Originally I was going with a Sony Bravia X Series 40" Link X Series

However Samsung released their new 1080p LCD tv Link la40m81bd that technically shits all over the Sony.

So the question is: What has your experience been with Samsung? Good or Bad?

Thanks in advance.

John.

PS. Please don't tell me to get Plasma. I have made my decision to go with LCD as to get a 1080p plasma is beyond my budget. Just what brand is the question.

Post 2

Samsung, as far as LCD goes, is bloody terrific. I honestly wouldn't buy anything but Samsung if I were in the market for LCD.

Sony, despite what's on paper, generally have better engines and produce slightly better pictures than their Samsung competition - but value for money still stands with Samsung. If you're the type of person that wants to pause your DVD or Blu-ray disc and examine it pixel for pixel, in my experience the Sony wins every time, but if you want to watch a film in full motion (usually the case), then you'll stuggle to see any difference, or at very least a difference that justifies the added price of the Sony.

In this specific case, being their new 1080p sets, I don't know if this holds true, but my advice would be that if you're looking at the Samsung, don't question it's quality or reliability for a second - awesome sets.

Post 3

i've got a 100cm Samsung CRT that we got for cheap from cashies as a stand-in til we could afford a decent smaller set - that was 4 years ago, we havent bothered buying a new one as this one has such a good picture. So they seem to be reliable :)

Post 4

afaik samsung have better warranty on their gear too

Post 5

just so we know... i am the samsung rep for the NT

a couple of things: samsung / sony are made in the same factory in Korea :D
Samsung is cheaper
Samsung exterior looks far better
Samsung has 3 year warranty... Sony has 1
However - seeing the M81 has been the best quality screen i have ever seen before

BTW Rec - when you pause a pixel - they are both the same... i have checked up on both and they are SHIT hot :-)

PM me if you want more info

Post 6

Quote from brownie;306983:
a couple of things: samsung / sony are made in the same factory in Korea

The panels are made in the same factory, but practically nothing else, and considering the panel makes very little difference to the final product, this fact is really void when making the choice.

Post 7

Thanks for the info brownie.

Post 8

jesus christ i'm so tempted to get that samsung. working for a national distributor doesn't hurt my buy price, mm.

Post 9

Quote from paladin;307036:
jesus christ i'm so tempted to get that samsung. working for a national distributor doesn't hurt my buy price, mm.

I know what you are talking about paladin. When I saw the brochure I wanted to buy the tv straight away, but it's not out yet. It should be around the middle of the month.

So how much do you think you can get the tv for?? Get me one as well and I'll pay you cash. ;)

Post 10

1 thing i dont know for sure....

I think their new panels are HDMI 1.3 - does it say that on the brochure? I will need to investigate it more as HDMI 1.3 will be the best..

Rec - they make their panels, and most of their compartments are the same. The main difference is the software that runs them, there is also a different chip (DNIe vs Sony's) and the exterior

Post 11

I think you meant components, and no, they're not - unless you mean they're the same type of technology (thus the same basic parts are used), which is obvious because they're both LCD sets. Just like a mercedes and a monster truck both have wheels, I guess you could call them the same... but they're not. :P

Besides that, it's the chip, the engine, which is actually the most important part, that sets them apart.

Post 12

Quote from poonda;307037:
I know what you are talking about paladin. When I saw the brochure I wanted to buy the tv straight away, but it's not out yet. It should be around the middle of the month.

So how much do you think you can get the tv for?? Get me one as well and I'll pay you cash. ;)

you'd pay almost as much for me to ship the tv from perth to adelaide on its own as you would for the tv itself, put it that way :) now if you could round up 4 or 5 people who wanted to buy them, i could just throw them on a pallet and it'd only cost a few hundred bucks to freight. then we could talk ;)

Post 13

Quote from brownie;307038:

Rec - they make their panels, and most of their compartments are the same. The main difference is the software that runs them, there is also a different chip (DNIe vs Sony's) and the exterior

:-) Yes i did mean components, and yes, they do. There is few minor differences. Tell you what... Ring up David Daly Electronics and find out what is mainly different with them. There are some differences, but not that many.

I then stated the difference is the chip (DNIe vs Sony's), however if the panel is shit, then the picture will be shit. If the panels are both the same, there will be minor differences.

Post 14

Quote from brownie;307038:
1 thing i dont know for sure....

I think their new panels are HDMI 1.3 - does it say that on the brochure? I will need to investigate it more as HDMI 1.3 will be the best..

Yep 1.3. That's what the brochure says.

Quote:
HDMI Version (1,2/1.3) 1.3

Post 15

It's not really a debate, the fact is that after panel production the units are shipped elsewhere, to manufacturer specific factories, where their own electronics and housings are used to complete the sets (as both companies produce their own components, with the panels being their only major joint venture).

There are indeed some identical bits and pieces inside, but far from all. You could still argue there are no differences, in a sense you'd be correct... they do use the same components... they're just not made in the same factory or by the same company.

And yes, we've already established the panels are the same, which is why it's the engines that set them apart, and why the Sony leads, if only marginally.

Post 16

Quote from rec;307043:

And yes, we've already established the panels are the same, which is why it's the engines that set them apart, and why the Sony leads, if only marginally.

However the samsung is a newer model than the sony, and therefore better technology so the lead would fall back to samsung. Is that correct?

Post 17

Quite possibly; as I said I haven't had a good chance to check out the 1080p sets first hand, in detail.

Post 18

I got quoted $3311 cash from a friend at harvey norman. What do you guys think?

I can spend another $300 and get 4 years warranty for total of 7.

Post 19

i think he's not fleecing you too badly. they DO have to make a profit after all.

Post 20

Quote from paladin;307629:
i think he's not fleecing you too badly. they DO have to make a profit after all.

Yeah, there no point in selling if you can't make a profit.

But that price is $300 less than JB HIFI.

So for the same price I can get the tv + 4 years replacement warranty.

I think I'm going to see him this weekend to put a deposit down, as he's leaving the company and no more mates rates :(.

Now the hard part. How much deposit should I put???

Post 21

well if he's leaving get him to shave another $200 off it ;)

Post 22

Maybe I'll ask him to do a better price on the topfield PVR

Post 23

I'm looking at the 1080i model, the Samsung LA40R71BDX http://www.samsung.com/au/products/tv/lcdtv/la40r71bd.asp cause I can't afford more than $2500. But it will do me for now :)

Post 24

Forget the Topfield... its a great machine but Foxtel IQ FTW.

Foxtel is also going HD later this year including a new 300G HD compatable IQ box.

The HDD in my IQ box died last week but because its a Foxtel box they replaced it within 48 hours... nice. Try that after paying "200 for a Topfield.

If you do go the Topfield for gods sake turn off the machine at night or dont use the live rewind function. This will save months on the HDD life.

Post 25

gogo samsung :-)

Longy - the 32" in that model was the best selling panel from July to Xmas.... pm me and ill tell you something special :-) - when you buying the tv?

Post 26

Quote from ResLo;307669:
Forget the Topfield... its a great machine but Foxtel IQ FTW.

Foxtel is also going HD later this year including a new 300G HD compatable IQ box.

The HDD in my IQ box died last week but because its a Foxtel box they replaced it within 48 hours... nice. Try that after paying "200 for a Topfield.

If you do go the Topfield for gods sake turn off the machine at night or dont use the live rewind function. This will save months on the HDD life.

BAH!

The HD Toppy is finally out!!!!!!
I have only been waiting almost 2 years - I will get divorced if I buy one however.

I have two SD Topfield PVRs and they are quite simply the best thing for FTA TV, and they don't cost me anything per month. The first one has never been turned off, except to recover from crashes which has happened twice I think in 2 years. Timeshift is always active and abused to the max.

I simply can't justify the cash for pay TV, when for a fraction of the cost I can "acquire" anything I want to watch.

Post 27

Didn't know that about Foxtel going HD - thats awesome - and more IQ space is cool to, I'm always lower than 30%

Post 28

Anyhow I won't be getting a PVR any time soon. The tv has it's own tuner so it will do. I don't watch too much tv, and all the episodes I watch, I've already have them anyway.

There is a slight chance I might consider foxtel, if they go to HD and the picture quality is good.

Post 29

Quote from Minorci;306980:
afaik samsung have better warranty on their gear too

lol our Rear Projection died like 2 weeks after the 1 year warranty expired :mad:

Post 30

Quote from sheezymaneezy;307718:
lol our Rear Projection died like 2 weeks after the 1 year warranty expired :mad:

It seems to happen a lot straight after the warranty has expired.

That's why I'm getting a 7 year warranty :D.

Post 31

heh, my xbox360 just died again, 3 days BEFORE the end of the warranty period.

Post 32

Quote from paladin;307722:
heh, my xbox360 just died again, 3 days BEFORE the end of the warranty period.

xbox360 is the exception :p. They die within the warranty period.

What do you mean again? How many time did it die?

Post 33

Quote from sheezymaneezy;307718:
lol our Rear Projection died like 2 weeks after the 1 year warranty expired :mad:

you should have rang samsung... they normally have a get out of jail free card for up to a month when the warranty expires :D...

Post 34

I'm sure sheezy's can't be fixed under warranty anyways.. unless man juice damage is covered? :p

Post 35

yeh killed 2 xboxes 1 standard 1 360, both cooked, lovely darwin wet season heat, the shop tells me yeh u got warranty but we only sell them, send it back to america to get a replacement, only take about 2 months, well after i went postal on their ass i got one there and then, hinted consumer affairs may be interested in their veiw on warranty and the non mention that 20% fatality rate of xboxes in darwin (told me that after got new one) so yeh anyone in dawin got 360 get fan attachment, has been all good since then

Post 36

Hey brownie care to explain as a samsung rep?

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/Industry/R8V4L2C6

Post 37

Quote from Piggy;307733:
yeh killed 2 xboxes 1 standard 1 360, both cooked, lovely darwin wet season heat, the shop tells me yeh u got warranty but we only sell them, send it back to america to get a replacement, only take about 2 months, well after i went postal on their ass i got one there and then, hinted consumer affairs may be interested in their veiw on warranty and the non mention that 20% fatality rate of xboxes in darwin (told me that after got new one) so yeh anyone in dawin got 360 get fan attachment, has been all good since then

sounds like crap to me. your xbox dies, you ring microsoft to book a repair job, they email you a postage slip for you to send the xbox back to them, you get it back in 1-2 weeks. the place of purchase has nothing to do with it outside of a DOA period.

Post 38

Quote from poonda;307729:
xbox360 is the exception :p. They die within the warranty period.

What do you mean again? How many time did it die?

twice.

first time the controllers stopped synching and it stopped recognising any discs, second time it just got the red ring of doom - 3 segments, error code was 'unknown error'.

stupid thing.

i was so close to finishing gh2 on expert too :(

Post 39

I only had a small issue with my 360... the back USB port wouldn't work, and the controllers wouldn't sync if something was plugged into this non-working port. The problem fixed itself after being left physically unplugged from the power for a few minutes.

I was one of the lucky ones though; 6 of 7 people I knew in Sydney had theirs stop working entirely within 6 months of purchase, between 18 months ago and half a year ago.

Post 40

To be back on topic. :p

Will these sound good?

http://www.soundimage.com.au/gallo/titanium/offer.html

Post 41

Quote from poonda;307735:
Hey brownie care to explain as a samsung rep?

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/Industry/R8V4L2C6

I can't explain it but I know it's true :P I believe LG had the same problem with some of their range for awhile too

Post 42

that is a good sign a number of there competition will just continue to sell the TVs and try to fix the problems as their costomers discover them.

Post 43

Quote from paladin;307736:
sounds like crap to me. your xbox dies, you ring microsoft to book a repair job, they email you a postage slip for you to send the xbox back to them, you get it back in 1-2 weeks. the place of purchase has nothing to do with it outside of a DOA period.

sounds like crap to you... well u wernt there mr know it all.. when did you last live in darwin if at all.. im telling the story and you post im just full of shit.. 1-2 weeks what planet do you live on? daaarrwwwiinnn mate nothing happens quick round here, also no one was interested in a repair.. asked does it turn on.. no well send it back for replacement no offer of repair.. and i dont care if the place of purchase has anything to do with it.. they sold it to me then try and say well thats all we so is sell em nothing else.. well too bad got my new one on the spot and im happy.. if you dont like it stfu paladin all you do on this forum is make an ass of youre self.. get ure hand off it mate and find sumone else to nitpick at.

Post 44

Quote from rec;307738:
I was one of the lucky ones though; 6 of 7 people I knew in Sydney had theirs stop working entirely within 6 months of purchase, between 18 months ago and half a year ago.

Mines broken once from a gow update. Toke them 1 week to repair and ship back from a place in sydeny.

Post 45

lived in darwin for 10 years thanks, well aware of what the weather there is like, also intimately familiar with the way warranty works, in particular the way the xbox warranty works - on account of having had to return mine, twice. from perth. whatever you think of freight in/out of darwin, perth is certainly no better.

you clearly didn't bother ringing microsoft support, otherwise you would have been told to send it back to their repair facility, located in new south wales. the next nearest repair facility is in new zealand, in both cases, far closer than the purported american depot you were told to send it to.

if you weren't prepared to read your warranty information, or to follow the correct procedure then that's your loss, just be glad the retailer rolled over and took it in the ass for you, unless it happened a week after you got it, they had no obligation to do so. just like the majority of consumer electronics - tvs, washing machines, fridges - the place of support is the manufacturer, not the retailer.

Post 46

Quote from paladin;307753:
lived in darwin for 10 years thanks, well aware of what the weather there is like, also intimately familiar with the way warranty works, in particular the way the xbox warranty works - on account of having had to return mine, twice. from perth. whatever you think of freight in/out of darwin, perth is certainly no better.

you clearly didn't bother ringing microsoft support, otherwise you would have been told to send it back to their repair facility, located in new south wales. the next nearest repair facility is in new zealand, in both cases, far closer than the purported american depot you were told to send it to.

if you weren't prepared to read your warranty information, or to follow the correct procedure then that's your loss, just be glad the retailer rolled over and took it in the ass for you, unless it happened a week after you got it, they had no obligation to do so. just like the majority of consumer electronics - tvs, washing machines, fridges - the place of support is the manufacturer, not the retailer.

good for you, you know what the weather is like.. dont remember asking you that..also happy that you are intimate with warranty issues *hands medal*, as for the freight that was never an issue because i was not intending to send anything anywhere, as i stated no repair mate so why even quote where they are, and no i did not read the warranty.. asif, how is it my loss when i got another one in ten mins ? so what you are telling me is that ure not happy you had to wait and i did not, not good enough reason to discredit my post like im a liar and full of it.. get ure head out of your arse

Post 47

omg, settle down peoples. When paladin said Quote from paladin;307736:
sounds like crap to me. I immediately thought he was talking about what the repairer said to you not what you were saying. Try not to take things out of context. And then paladin biting back instead of explaining yourself....doesn't help. Take some chill pills both of you and get back to topic.

Post 48

Quote from Piggy;307755:
get ure head out of your arse

Awsome way to lend credit to your post

Post 49

Quote from Piggy;307755:
good for you, you know what the weather is like.. dont remember asking you that..

you introduced the weather by claiming it as a reason for your xbox death.

Quote from piggy:
and no i did not read the warranty.. asif

well, that little gem speaks for itself doesn't it. can't be bothered reading the warranty. and then act shocked when the retailer says they can't fix it?

Quote from piggy:
how is it my loss when i got another one in ten mins ?

in this case it isn't, shrug. as i said, you got lucky. unless it was a very recent purchase they were under no obligation to do so, something that you'd understand if you read the xbox warranty.

Quote from piggy:
well after i went postal on their ass

there's exactly nothing to be proud of over this. it's arrogance like yours, the thought that you're too good to read the warranty, the thought that warranty procedure shouldn't apply to you, that makes the lives of customer service representatives hell. i deal with morons on a daily basis who expect the rules to be bent to accomodate them, you just dont realise the trouble this causes behind the scenes. likely you don't care, you got what you want and to hell with how you got it, right?

what they told you was crap, as i said in my original post; however your ignorance of the correct procedure served to do nothing but exacerbate the situation. the fact that you got a new xbox out of it is irrelevant (how old was your purchase btw?)

Quote from piggy:
so what you are telling me is that ure not happy you had to wait and i did not

never said that, i'm comfortable with the amount of time it takes to get it replaced/repaired. i'm also comfortable with the procedure - i live in the real world, and understand that getting your own way isn't always paramount

Quote from piggy:
not good enough reason to discredit my post like im a liar and full of it..

never did, i said it's crap that it had to go back to america. that little nugget is simply not true. you'd know this if you ever read the warranty and support guidelines for your $500 toy.

Quote from piggy:
get ure head out of your arse

haha. is this overg on another account?

Post 50

OOOOOOhhhhh!!!

An articulate and grammatically correct point by point

BUUUUUURRRRRNNNNNN.

Post 51

well, maybe if i used capitals it would be :P

Post 52

compared to the wall of text formatting above, it was like sex for the eyes.

Post 53

voting for

L E G E N D A R Y

T H R E A D

Post 54

Quote from BrAiN DaNcE;307762:
OOOOOOhhhhh!!!

An articulate and grammatically correct point by point

BUUUUUURRRRRNNNNNN.

not a good idea for you to get involved

Post 55

but to paladin.. you have some valid points and i did take some things out of context :( apologise for the personal slander ie:(get ure head out ure ass) no excuse, took it a bit personally... so flame away ill take it like man

Post 56

dont kill the fun :(

Post 57

Rebirth of fun approaching.

Piggy, there's no need to apologise - your statement regarding Paladin having his bead between his arse is also valid, we know this because the same statement has been made about him more than once in the past week alone.

Coincidence? I think not.

*Cue Twilight Zone music

Post 58

ah yes. and we know you're gay because multiple people have made that statement about you :)

someone said it on the intarwebs, it must be true!

Post 59

And each time it's said, your heart races and your eyes light up with delight!

Post 60

oih get back to the topic.

Piggy, paladin and rec. Nobody is perfect :p.

So back on topic, sort of :D.

Will these sound good???

http://www.soundimage.com.au/gallo/titanium/offer.html

Post 61

Quote from rec;307771:
And each time it's said, your heart races and your eyes light up with delight!

if my heart raced every time someone called you gay, it would have exploded long ago

sorry poonda :P

Post 62

Quote from paladin;307777:
sorry poonda :P

Well I'm going to quote my mouse mat then.

"OK, That Does It! Screw This, I'm Going Home!"

:D :D

Post 63

The TVs are fine... When the problem was disovered there was a limited amount on the market and samsung then stopped selling them to the company.

I can basicaly say its a software problem as the TV tuner sometimes loses its memory. Instead of selling you a dodge product - samsung is recalling 100% of them from retail stores. If the retailer wants to keep them they can... to fix the problem, you just take it to your service agent and they load a firm ware update.

Sometimes this has happened with other TV's like Kate said (with LG) But its quite easily fixed.

Post 64

So for the last time.

Will these sound good???

http://www.soundimage.com.au/gallo/titanium/offer.html

Post 65

Given I've seen where your going to set this up Poonda I think its a bit more than you need to spend.

I'm all for spending what a sound system or speaker is worth but only if your going to be able to get the most out of them... and that means sound damping walls etc.

Your a bit open so thats why I'd go for something similiar in looks (small satelites) but I'm sure you can get something for 50% less.

Dont get me wrong pay the cash for these and I'm sure they will still sound better then my 50% discount preference but it wont be noticable really.

Post 66

go to north coast stereo.. he will get you some good shit :-)

Post 67

Bit of a drive from Adelaide.... prices would want to be below cost!

Post 68

Went to Harvey Norman today, and put a deposit for the tv.

$3611 ($3311 for tv + $300 for 4 years warranty).

Got a powerboard as well.

Post 69

Enjoy it Poonda.

Post 70

looking at getting one as well from Good Guys.

What do you think the minimum deposit is so I can walk away with one ASAP?

I was talking to someone and they were saying that is I got it, Good Guys would give me 12 months interest free.

Post 71

On 12 months interest free, you might not need a deposit at all? Radio Rentals does 3-5 years interest free with a 15%-25% deposit on total cost.

Post 72

Usually 10% is usually the norm on TVs. I put $500 on mine, even tho I didn't have to put that much.

How much are you getting it for? If you pay cash usually you can get it cheaper. I think most places now do interest free perios. Harvey Norman, has like 24 months for a 1/3 deposit. 12 months no deposit.

As you can see from DTV Forum Australia, there is a big post about the m81 series. A few people have been able to get some really good prices for the 40" or the 46". Just look down at the bottom.

I got my 40" for $3311 + $300 (4 years warranty on top).

Also I got a Samsung dvd player HD1080P7("99) which supports HDMI CEC functions, so when I press "play" on the dvd play the tv will switch to the dvd.

PS. Just got a call from HN just as I was typing this, saying my tv has arrived :).

Post 73

cool.

I'll look at putting down $700-"000 as a deposit for the TV.

Should be alright I guess, just have to jump through the hoops of applying for GE credit.

Post 74

[Image: http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/catalogue_files/sgn_juncore_p05_web.jpg]

The one at the top - any good?

Post 75

TV is around the $3300 mark. The dvd player is the same one as the one I'm getting. "99

$3499 for TV and dvd player. The rest is the home threatre system. If it's a good brand go for it.

Post 76

from what I can see, it's all Samsung :D

Post 77

Indeed it is, but you can pick that sound system up well cheaper than "000. On top of that, there are much better small entertainment sound systems than the ones that Samsung produce.

You're losing about $200-$300 by buying that package.

Depends if you just want to grab it, or spend the time haggling for the best prices.

Post 78

Personally I didn't do something like that, because in the future I want to get blu-ray/HD DVD player combo and I want to get a sound system that has Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master.

PS. Check if they give you a HDMI cable with the dvd player, because I got the same player and it doesn't come with a HDMI cable to I had to buy one. 1.3v HDMI cable is expensive :(.

Post 79

Thanks for the help guys, I'm just going to get the TV as of now and the sound system will come later.

Post 80

If you can, get extended warranty. Its the best thing you will do as the TV should last a long time.

Post 81

schweet.

Will post up some piccies next week :D

Post 82

Quote from PapaDom;309169:
schweet.

Will post up some piccies next week :D

Yeah plz do. Until I move in, the only pics I will get are of the box :p.

Post 83

haha.

Hopefully I can get this Tv and a PS3 ayt the same time - it will save my state of mind if I do.

Post 84

Take some pics of the tv showcasing the ps3 :).

Post 85

wewt!

Got one today, now to find a time to pick it up.

Also EB at Casuarina doesn't ahve any PS3's until Wednesday. Boo. Might have to drive out to Palmy.

Post 86

So what tv did you get? Hurry up with the pics :p

I have a nice 720p monitor but I'm keen on FULL HD :)

Post 87

Based on your reply in my TVersity thread, I assume you now have a PS3 setup on your new screen? Pics! :)

Uselses bit of info: "FULL HD" is actually only a woeful 2 megapixels in camera terminology.

Post 88

will have some pics up tomorrow night.

Going to get my TV tomorrow (lunch) and my PS3 after wor tomorrow (EB cas doesn't have any so I have to drive out to Palmy).

How long does it take to get to Palmy form Stuart Park?

Post 89

Bout 25-30 mins.

Post 90

hah, takes me 10 minutes tops to get to work in the mornin from palmo all the way into the CBD...

Post 91

I think the best time I ever made was about 15 minutes. You must drive really, really fast. :)

Post 92

i think it was established in an earlier thread that he's an idiot who believes he has a god given right to drive insanely fast.

Post 93

actually wait, i think he i was remembering his 'omg the petrol is watered down thread' and confusing it with another.

Post 94

lol. Thanks for the travel times guys. Picked up the set during my lunch break, now to go for a drive to Palmy to get the PS3.

Anyone have any sweet Blu-Ray movies I can preview?

Post 95

Actually i drive into town at about 5 am, so there is absolutly no trafic on the roads, and not a single red light, so 110 the whole way takes around 7-10 minutes.

Post 96

110 would be speeding.

Post 97

schweet, going to get up early (in 5 hours) and drive out to get one. Anyone up for some Resistance online later today?

Post 98

not on PS3... PC games ftw

Post 99

This is what my TV looked like on the friday. I called Samsung support and they put me through to their service agent. The agent, said either the lcd driver or the mainboard, needs replacing. 8-10 days without a TV.

I called Harvey Norman and explained the situation, and on Saturday I had a brand new replacement TV, which even has newer firmware on it. I'm a happy chap :).

Post 100

Wow that bites... at least it was sorted out quickly.