Military Might!

Me and my dad where having a lecture battle today. Today it was on military might and he was skimming over the topic of the...

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier"

Suggesting that they are unbeatable! I tryed to refute him but to no avail. Please help!

Lepi

nothing is unbeatable when it comes to military..History shows that there is ALWAYS a counter-weapon that for the weapon that is made

Mass attack on a carrier could easily take it down. i.e missile attack from many frigates or aircrafts

EDIT - I was reading yesterday that a carrier was taken down by Vietcong sappers in a book I have about Vietnam war. I know it is not that same class, but goes to show a small force can take down a carrier. Also as far as I can recall a Nimitz carrier has never been attacked to date , because they always have escorts. Be that submarines AND frigates/missile carriers. So also another fact why they can't be taken down for that reason

I tried to tell dad that perhaps the generation 5 Fighter jets could do something? And I did suggest fighting fire with fire.. He mentioned a time when china make the us agro so they sent 2 of them over as a sign to back the **** up

Thing is, carriers are never alone, they always have escorts.

The ability to have air superiority at any location on the globe, is such a significant part of the US military strategies, they make sure that a carrier will never be caught alone.

So instead of just considering a single carrier, consider a battle group

Carrier battle group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haha. I have a feeling that the group like you have both said is rather um. hard :P

He's got a strong case, although you could try to trap him on a technicality: a carrier by itself is quite vulnerable; it's the battle group as whole that makes it such a tough nut to crack. These are massive assets in terms of both cost and lives. Each American carrier battle group has it's own freakin' zip code if you can believe that.

They operate with a picket of destroyers deploying helicopters as well as fixed-wing aircraft from the carrier itself to locate and persecute sub-surface contacts. Each carrier is also escorted by at least one AEGIS cruiser to direct fleet defence against air attacks from cruise missiles and enemy aircraft. They also often have their own attack submarine that sits well off from the group searching for enemy subs that might be quietly laying in wait to ambush the carrier as it passes nearby.

The only way to sink a US carrier would be through sheer force in the form of a attack of aircraft or cruise missiles intended to overwhelm the group's (considerable) defensive capabilities or the complete opposite - a stealthy strike by a lone submarine that managed to slip through the screen. The latter scenario is the most likely imho, so you could come back at him with this:

Kilo class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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VA-111 Shkval - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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[media]http://www.aip.org/history/syllabi/Baker1_sm.jpg[/media]

There is a third option, and perhaps in this day and age it's not as unthinkable as it was once before - a carrier could be suffer a terrorist attack while in port at a foreign country. It's a five billion dollar asset and is crewed by over 5,000 serviceman. Tell me that wouldn't be a prize.

China is coming up in the world in military might wise. They are not to be messed with. They are modernizing alot of there weaponry on all forces

As for gen 5 fighters, even stealth fighters can be detected. They are not fool proof. I am not sure they can take down a carrier

There are proof of concept weapons like "steel rods" from space satellites (or gods rods) forget which name, but are just plain old many feet rods in space with no explosive on them launched, enter the atmosphere and coming with such kinetic force make a big explosion.

Nuclear weapons (ie ICBM) or the vaccum bomb launched from planes could take down a carrier no problem

Torpedoes can take down a carrier if enough hit. That is why they have those escorts. If they are taken down a single or multiple subs could sink a carrier no problem.

?Secret Russian weapons? still terrify Americans - Pravda.Ru

There are some modern weapons in that link that could be used in your argument

I forgot about the rocket torpedo. Did not think they were put into action!

Is it true the chinese can lazer down our satelleites?

Spiritwalker: I was trying to keep my hypothetical scenario to hardware that has already been developed and has been fielded by (or is available to) countries that are most likely to become involved in a conflict with the US (i.e Iran, North Korea and China).

I don't think ICBMs are much good against moving targets given their flight time (although I'm happy to be corrected on that if I'm wrong) and my understanding of vacuum bombs, at least of the size required here, is that they weigh about 8 tonnes and need to be carried by big, slow transport planes and they use parachute retardation when dropped over a target? Again, while capable of destroying or terminally damaging a vessel the size of an aircraft carrier, I don't think there's a reasonable chance of successful delivery.

Lepi: No idea, but if they don't they're probably working on it. :)

The Shkval whilst on paper is really good, as soon as it has fired, you have given your position away in some stupid radius.

Ah, but the Shkval II on the other hand, is propelled by a small slow propeller, running almost silently, until it is far enough away from the sub to fire its rocket, and reach supersonic speeds underwater. I've even hear rumors that they can be fired into the water, and left for hours or even days, before they get the signal to fire their rockets, and by then, the sub that deployed them is long gone.

Make love not war :)

this is an interesting article from the Economist on the militarisation of space: The militarisation of space: Disharmony in the spheres

Quote from Lepi;337592:
Me and my dad where having a lecture battle today. Today it was on military might and he was skimming over the topic of the...

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz_class_aircraft_carrier"

Suggesting that they are unbeatable! I tryed to refute him but to no avail. Please help!

Lepi

You need to define what "beat" means.

If you mean "render much less useful", send in the Submarines. A carrier is too big to be sunk by most kinds of torpedo, but its screws can be destroyed, leaving it dead in the water with drastically reduced usefulness.

If you mean "sink", you will need a lot of very large missiles. Or a nuke. Or both. Carriers have something like 20 inches of armor at the waterline. You're better off destroying the flight deck instead.

Don't think that the yanks haven't thought of these -- hence Carrier Battle Groups.

Otherwise, cheat. Bomb it in harbour, where the CBG can't spread out. Lay mines in its path. Infiltrate saboteurs.

As for stuff like kinetic harpoons, you're starting to get into wish fulfillment. I'll see your kinetic harpoons and raise you orbital grasers and crust-buster antimatter warheads. Hell, some mechs while we're at it; nothing can stop mechs driven by 14 year old Japanese orphans.

Quote from El Presidente;337680:
Hell, some mechs while we're at it; nothing can stop mechs driven by 14 year old Japanese orphans.

Except mechs driven by angsty teenage girls.

didn't a chinese sub surface inside a us carrier battle group sometime last year?
just goes to show asw isn't perfect if you rely only on passive detection.

Quote from swamp rat;337696:
didn't a chinese sub surface inside a us carrier battle group sometime last year?
just goes to show asw isn't perfect if you rely only on passive detection.

It also goes to show that you don't know if the yanks let him do it to give the Chinese a false sense of security.

Or whether the sub surfaced because that's considered the polite thing to do in mixed company.

Decent bit of information on all kinds of things on here:

GlobalSecurity.org - Reliable Security Information

Quote from Lepi;337615:
Is it true the Chinese can laser down our satellites?

I have no heard about that, but they have successfully tested a missile which can shot down (I believe) low orbiting satellites.

Bam Stroker : As far I am aware North Korea atm is nothing to worry about. My fear mainly would lie with China or Iran, but China would never start a war with US without reprisal of losing there lovely money they are getting from Economic benefits. I guess thats is a another matter.

Iran are starting to slowly bring themselves militarily wise. But China imo has the resources , man power , close to or very modern weapons that could be a threat to the US or a Nimitz class carrier for that matter.

What about indonesia and the islands above us.. the islamic threat! we are largly under protection only due to our missile detection centres and once they have a means to do that from space/some where else we may be screwed

oh noes! quick, tell a current affair! I can see the story now: "Australia's Worst Oceanic Neighbour" =)

Quote from Lepi;337786:
What about indonesia and the islands above us.. the islamic threat! we are largly under protection only due to our missile detection centres and once they have a means to do that from space/some where else we may be screwed

Indonesia is making the long and difficult journey from tinpot dictatorship to modern, globalised democracy. We don't help that process by bagging the religion of hundreds of millions of its citizens.

In practice our best policy for dealing with Indonesia is to help them work on stamping out corruption, encouraging trade, and retaining and upgrading our F-111s.

ahhhh, so indo's are no problemo's?? haha, i cant see mr.rudd being a the best figurehead for australian war anyway

Quote from OverDrive;337650:
Make love not war :)

Generally, but I'm not too keen on making love with family ;)

Quote from OverG;337831:
Generally, but I'm not too keen on making love with family ;)

Lol you at war with your family?

C&C3 stylez?

What I mean is something like Luke & Leah Skywalker type ;)

Good thing I'm a Han Solo character :D

Quote from OverG;337845:
What I mean is something like Luke & Leah Skywalker type ;)

Good thing I'm a Hand Solo character :D

fixt

Its Leia...****ing n00bs.

that wasn't the sort of fix i was going for.

I know but it was bugging me.

I read somewhere that when the US were thinking of invading Iraq they ran a paper war game. Their leading war guy played the part of Saddam. Using only the resources available to Iraq, namely 8000+ little boats packed with explosives and suicide bombers. He managed to wipe out a complete carrier group.

Pala can play to be chewi.

At least Han (clumsy as he is), gets the princess...

And chewi gets to watch the action :D

Quote from Lepi;337615:
Is it true the chinese can lazer down our satelleites?

I think, according to that article that Uber Tard posted, the Chinese have been using lasers to blind and disable spy satellite imaging systems. Not physically destroy them.

has anyone seen zeitgeist??

*raises hand*

But it's really only part 1 of Zeitgeist that does it for me. Parts 2 and 3 - while expressing interesting viewpoints - is entering tinfoil hat territory.

whats 2 and 3? I have upto where he talks about 'the chip' and thats about it

Sounds interesting Bam..