matrix reloaded discussion thread for those who've seen it

wow. where to begin. ok i'm doing a design project on the work of the wachowski brothers, and so far i have viewed all of their directed works. man these guys are good. for my project i'd like to collect a few opinions on their latest - if you liked it please explain why, if it failed you please explain why. don't just give me a one word answer; i'd appreciate it if you'd elaborate on your thoughts and feelings about the film. and for other analytical film buffs such as myself, it'd be good for us to share our thoughts and erm revelations on the film and the series in general ;)

Illusions.
btw. please don't spam my thread ;)

The first thing i can say is...How do you spoil a great movie ? ....Reload it!

I liked the first one alot...the second one was...for lack of a better word..shit!

The first movie yeah okay i can see what they are saying nice idea the second one....waaaayy too far fetched. The only parts i liked in the movie was when they were in the matrix as soon as the unplugged ..what the.. underground rave crap with morpheous turning out to be some colt leader.. way to ruin the best character! Smith played the best role!..and it went on from there blah blah this blah blah choose this and that ...hmm better check the watch again how long till this ends!! ...the best part was when we started calling out for them to fast foward to the good bits!

Sorry guys the first one was great the second one was discusting..lets see how the third turns out.... :x

haha i saw it at the premiere b4 the official release date @ marion megaplex, i loved it apart from the obvious fact that they made such a point in the first one to remove the spinal plugs etc. etc. then show em again in the second one????? anyone else see this as wierd, neway the dance rave shit was crap although i thought after the first half hour it pumped, i loved it after that, all in all i believe every movie has to take time to explain things and build an atmosphere however it did drag on a bit,

oh and i saw it again on sunday too, it was heaps better the second time round, i recommend it for a second viewing.

it raises alot of questions aswell as answered alot aswell, hmmmmm, like are the spinal plugs there as an obvious flaw pointing to something else we may not of thought of, a matrix in a matrix??? otherwise how can a program transfer into the real world?? as in smith?? plus more!!

this is my view and all i can say is that at the premiere they told us before the movie to wait through the credits because after the credits rolled it shows the full theatrical tralier to MATRIX REVOLUTIONS.................

so who may i ask walked out before the end of the credits and missed the preview of the third film????

:twisted:

Dazza, I knew not to leave till I saw the Preview.. Looks "interesting"..

I am Crossposting this from the discussion we are having on RIOT about the film..

Quote:
I enjoyed the film, but there are a few nigly things I didnt like about it..

I have the animatrix ( all 9 parts ) so I understood things a lot better, and that is the irritation I have..

Without seeing it, most wouldnt know the relevance of the Osiris ( but I bet most of you do here, since they released it on the net )..

BUT, what about the kid who says Neo saved him ??

That is from anime 9 from the DVD ( called A Kid's Story ). I dont think that was ever released on the net...

That and how the furk do the twins, Neo flying like superman, and the Architect fit into the original stoyline ( from Matrix 1 ).

Neo is "the One" so he can bend the martix to his wishes. How do the twins relate to that ? Also the keymaker, and that french dude ( forgot his name ) it is explained that errant anomalies exist in the matrix, which sort of explains them and the oracle.. but its a lil muddy..

I think really they have pluted the original films concepts and tried to make it too, umm Xmen like.. And thats not good..

Undoubtedly they have pushed the envelope for filmatography to its extreme, and that was a joy to watch, but they havent done a great deal for the story line for me. To me they have a lot of the story to tell still, but they havent really got it all in the right order.

Errr... The holes are still there because they left them there in the first movie. Remember when Neo asks Doser or whatever his name is, No holes? And he says he's born and bred at Zion. You can see the holes in the first movie just as you can see em in the second.

Final Flight of the Osiris is not available for download for free :D (legally :D) I think the twins are another one of those old programs like the werewolf type things. And the keymaker and all that, what's to say they weren't there for the explicit purpose of getting Neo to the architect rather then actually being rogue programs.

I think they greatly advanced the plot and created another level of depth which is GREAT for a sequal otherwise it woulda just been another more of the same sequal movie like so many others. Perhaps the unanswered questions will be answered in the last of the trilogy. If so, it's a good thing, each movie sequentially delving you deeper into the story.

The twins were a remenant of the old program.... there were also werewolves.... and i'm guessing a vampire in there somewhere.....

the woman (forget her name) had the fancy gun, and asked "who else has silver bullets in their gun?" - and shot one of the (i'm guessing) Werewolves....

the rogues (as far as i could tell) were the twins(ghosts), the werewolves(guards of the keymaker), the 2 dudes that fought in the lobby with swords and stuff, i have no idea what they were, that's why i'm guessing vampires and the french dude was, to my thinking the "one" from before....

now, the keymaker was meant to get to Neo earlier i'm sure, but it may be a "game" to the machines... set up a challenge, fight end of level bad guy.... and so on. Agent smith is a rogue, in every sense of the word.... like he said, he's different from the other agents, he can take over other agents, and humans... thus the 50+ strong army of Agent smiths...

As far as i can tell, Neo is an anomoly of the "one" that resets the OS(:P) every x years - he is actually different in the fact he actually refused to reboot the matrix, and could actually effect the machines OUTSIDE of the matrix (yes, ok frying his brain in the process, but, hey, he DID do it) - BECAUSE he was attached to someone.... maybe the others had an ego the size of a house or something, thought they were god - they don't really go into it....

but the bit that annoyed me most about The Matrix Reloaded was the :

TO BE CONCLUDED

at the end of the movie.... they kinda didn't even finish the movie.... it's like watching a 2 part series - and 6 months befroe you can watch the second part.... :evil:

It was notso hotso.

I guess the wachowski brothers were working hard to make this one as "mindfuck" as the last one. Result? Lots of bad-fantasy-author dialogue and lots of boring-arse world-building blah blah.

Everyone in the movie just f*cking itched to tell Neo about free choice vs determinism. I guess that since the Wachowskis had done Descartes, they needed to go back further and do Socrates (or was it Plato? Aristotle? I can never remember).

Oh. Cool action scenes...

... which every other scene was a poorly-written excuse to try and get to in a vaguely logical fashion.

I will reserve final judgement for Revolutions.

I didn't mind the rave seen or the love scene (eye candy), however they weren't critical to the movie or could have been done in a much shorter fashion. Which would have given them more time to show the fight between the sentinal and the five ships, giveing more depth to the Kain character.

I think some of the camera scenes and angles where lacking. Especialy in the car chase on the freeway, although I would say the special effects where good and covered most places well. The first one had some wicked effects in regard to lighting, fade ins and the use of the sound track to back up and suport the special effects. Little things create atmospher and this one didn't cut it. Still good, not great. The third one will be. This one is just a stepping stone and a chance to explain.

I just saw The Matrix (1) on Saturday for the first time :oops: *crawls out from under rock*

actually i found it to be quite a good film, apart from the rather lengthy stay in zion. i picked up a lot of the symbolism the first time around, although i'm sure that there are plenty of things i missed, which is why i'm going to see it a second time :). and now that i know about the revolutions preview... ;)
a lot of the new characters were programs - the twins were programs as were the werewolves, and possibly even the merovingian although that's never clarified in the film, which could be significant. assuming that the merovingian is a past "one", it would be highly important if he were a program, as that would clarify Neo as a program.
i actually thought that the plot line was quite an impressive twist on the previous movie - no one was expecting it. who should we trust? there's no clarification that the oracle was the mother of the matrix, so is she good or bad? if the one is really just another method of control, then why was he given a choice? shouldn't there be a redundancy system in case he does choose the left door?
and someone addressed earlier about the agents wanting to kill the keymaker. that was because they don't know about the 'plan'. the architect plays the agents against the rebels in order to keep the ruse going. the agents don't know of the importance of the keymaker etc - to them he's a renegade program that needs to be eliminated. this implies that there is a newer version of the keymaker floating around somewhere, although it's never actually specified.
there is evidence to suggest that smith knows, but i don't actually believe he's a regular agent. in the first movie he gave morpheus an absolute hammering - the newer agents still dish out the damage but don't cause anywhere near as much pain. smith also seems to be far more aware - far more human - than the other agents. the fact that he now has some of neo's coding only heightens that fact.

as for the sentinels in the real world, i can't really find a plausible explanation for that. however one solution is presented on another website. agent smith has taken over kain, yet presumably he still has a connection with neo and the other agents within the matrix. therefore neo feels the sentinels through agent smith and is able to cause some damage to them in the real world because of his connection to the matrix. because this goes through kain/smith, and because neo is no longer within the matrix it causes them to both go into a coma.
the other explanation is the matrix within a matrix theory, although if that were the case then zion could simply be unplugged.

on the whole though i found the movie satisfying. it expanded on the themes and storyline of the first, whilst still leaving plenty of room for the third movie to step in. remember that it is only the middle of the three, and so it's probably also going to be the weakest. making a sequel to the matrix was always going to be hard...

The Plot thickens

xion is created in different places.

an interesting read. and as pointed out, there are several major clues/flaws in the films construction which will be used later in m3 to keep it flowing. the story just cant leap like it seems it will.

heres a review by an unamed person. some pieces all in place.

i dont agree with this review entirely, but it sheds some light on whats really "happening".

-

First a PERFECT WORLD MATRIX was built, but it didn't work.

The architech tells Neo that humans have problems assimilating the matrix becuase they have to be able to CHOOSE, to have a PURPOSE in life (please help me complete the dialog between Neo and the Architect, english is not my mother language).

Assuming this is a fact it explains why the first Matrix didn't work. In a perferct world humans can't make choices, if they did then it wouldn't be perfect beacuse humans are not perfect. There is no PURPOSE either, since a PURPOSE is the need to change something that is not good, to improve things, obviously nothing can be improved in a PERFECT world.

So then they build a second type of Matrix, an inperfect world. Still there are some humans that don't accept the program. These are people like Morpheus, Trinity and all the others that were freed(?) from the Matrix. According to the Architect this flaw in the program is what makes the program run. The Architect also claims that this flaw also generates a singularity, Neo. But I'm not sure about the truth of this stament (more below)

Now the key point is how does the MATRIX keep these people from destroying the Matrix. Well it gives them a PURPOSE. the

Matrix lets this people try to destroy it, or in what's even better it makes them believe that they can destroy it, when they actually can't.

So now comes the interesting part:

* There are two (maybe more and I believe that in the end we will never know) virtual reality worlds and a real world.

* The first VR world is the Matrix as we knew it in the first movie. But as I argued before some pleople are born this matrix

that have the need to detroy it, to become free. THis people are freed from the first Matrix and move on to the second one.

* The second Matrix is the "real world" shown in the first and second movie. So ZION is a VR city in the second matrix. In the second Matrix you collect all the rebel minds that are struggling to become free and give them a PURPOSE, to destroy the first Matrix. This is just a way to stop these minds from trying to become completly free from the second Matrix.

* Proof that there are two VR worlds

- Neo stops the centinels. Who could he stop them with out being plugged to the Matrix?
- Agent Smith hacks in to a human being. That means that the human is still plugged to the system.

So now you say very nice but what does this has to do with anything.

* A PURPOSE is not only an objective, it is also the belief that the objective can be accomplished. So the Matrix generates the ORACLE and NEO (Yes! NEO is also a program)

* The ORACLE is a program that guides the rebels, it keeps the distracted searching and fighting for something that keeps the away from the truth (that they are slaves,..., born in a prison for their minds).

* There is the need to reset the matrix from time to time. Just like with your computer, and restart from scratch. There are to many thing in the Windows registry, programs that were not removed porperly (like the French guy). That is when NEO comes in.

* Neo is a computer program designed to believe he is a human being. His function is to destroy the Matrix. So that it can be reloaded.

WHAT???

Yes The One is a program. WHY???

* How else can he do what he does? I don't buy that story that computer programs are built on rules. The human being is also built on rules.

* The Architect described him as the result of an equation.

* The Architect is allways following Neo. He was watching him in the first movie too!!! Who do I know? The Architect is in

the room with all the screens. Those screens appear in the first movie at the beging of the scene in which Neo is questioned by the Agents. Also we see all of Neo's life in the screens. He can even see his dreams since we see Trinity falling down the window.

* The previous Neos were identical to him.

The next thing has to do with the idea that Neo is a computer program and that there are two Matrices.

* In the Matrix Morpheous tells a story, and I quote:

" When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth."

* If he was really a man and was born inside the matrix how could he break free from his shell in the real world?

* If that man was THE ONE, why didn't he free that human race? He was not programmed to do so. His function was to reset the matrix.

So what is the point now, is the human race trapped in this vicious circle?

Obiously not, this is still an american film and things allways end well. What we are seeing now is like the Empire Strikes Back. In the third movie we will see Neo finally destroy the Matrix. But how? Why doesn't Neo end up doing what he was programmed to do, like the five Neos before him? The answer is Trinity. think about. How did all this started? AI, a computer that learned how to think conquers the human race. Now a Computer that learns how to love saves the human race.

Oops dbl post, moderator pls remove..

Smith also seemed different in the first movie before Neo.. killed him or whatever. As he states he hates this place and he thinks it's the smell of the humans. Great character, and great actor! Hugo Weaving is my favourite actor :D

I hated the ending. NOt the too be continued bit but were neo kills the drones the way he does. ITs bs.

Hated the movie over all I gotta say. The only ood bit is when he smashes the 50 smith agents :D

Interesting Sly. Most of those points have been brought up before though but not in as much detail possibly.

ok, firstly i must say that i'm not sure that neo is a computer program. it certainly seems that way although there are several points that should be made:
- firstly i don't believe that the other 'one's looked like neo. there were far more than 5 TV screens in the architect's office - i think they were actually reactions that the system predicted neo would make rather than the previous anomalies.
- neo is far too human, especially outside of the matrix. he loves, he empathises and he has sex - these are things that are physically impossible for a machine/program to do, and i believe that the rave/sex scene was designed to show this point (as well as some tits and arse :P).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
the exact dialogue between neo and the architect
The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I’ve been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven’t answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “Others? What others? How many? Answer me!”*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “Five versions? Three? I’ve been lied too. This is bull****.*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly’s systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “You can‘t control me! **** you! I’m going to kill you! You can‘t make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: “Bull****!”*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you’re going to do, don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.

The Architect - We won’t.
-------------------------------------------------------

ok for those who found it hard to follow in the movie (he was speaking quite fast), here is the official dialogue between the architect and neo. read carefully :)

If you have seen the animatrix they elaborate that the first pure machine city was called 0-1

zero-one
zion?

COINCIDENCE?

also when trinity uses nmap and the ssh -1 sploit :P (great touch by the w. bros)
her password is zion1010 (i think its acutally z10n1010 but i'm not shure)

but anyways, zion1010 in binary zion5, 5 zions... destroyed 5 times?

COINCIDENCE!!!!

I THINK NOT!! :P

but who knows :P

Personally I think zion is a second matrix to which they give the .1 percent of the people who dont accept the First Matrix, so they stop trhying to escape, becuase they already think they have.

But because of neo merging with A. Smith, Smith got some part of Neo, so why cant Neo get a part of A. Smith.

So while he was in the Zion Matrix, he felt the sentinels, this is the first time in the movie where neo is close to a sentinel so that could be the reason, and because he tries to use his Matrix powers (lets call them windows powers) and this is a much more secure matrix (lets.. for aravis sake, call it the Linux matrix) shit happens... big lightning zap, the sentinels fry, as does Neo's brain.. hence the reason he is in a coma (Blue screen of death), but anyway thats my ideas. They came to me after leaving the cinema, not after reading lotsa forums and stuff :)

Quote:
- Neo stops the centinels. Who could he stop them with out being plugged to the Matrix?
- Agent Smith hacks in to a human being. That means that the human is still plugged to the system.

Neo could be an anomaly both physically and digitally. Basically, the gift he has may extend into his real self, rather than just his digital self.

Just because agent Smith hacked the human doesn't mean the human is still plugged into the system, I don't understand that logic, silly.

Although the "real world" probably is just another Matrix, there's no definate yes quite yet.

Quote from Illusions:
neo is far too human, especially outside of the matrix. he loves, he empathises and he has sex - these are things that are physically impossible for a machine/program to do, and i believe that the rave/sex scene was designed to show this point

I concur.

Seriously. I understood the Architect's speach the first time 'round, and I was ubertired and mega sick... o.o

http://www.mikedingleyjones.btinternet.co.uk/the.matrix.revolutions.mpg

^_^

EDIT: Just watched it. Looks like there's gonna be a big hamuns vs machines battle n everything :D

You hear Morpheus say "He fights for us". Perhaps he's referring to Neo as they possibly discover he's machine made or something oO.

"It's nice to have something to look forward to. Indeed it is" :D:D Very nice indeedie!

I still think Trinity should have died. And become an agent.

Yes, and Neo realises that trinity is an agent, still loves her.
Agent smith gets altered 'again' and loves neo.

=

Smith keeps donkey punching neo when they are going at it.
(Neo blocks)

lmao blue

When Neo goes to Zion, all the ppl approach him for help and prayer for their sick family. Could that mean they believe he has powers outside of the matrix, in the real world? That could tie in with him destroying the sentinels.

Weren't they referring to saving their families still stuck in the Matrix or something?

One little detail I haven't seen mentioned on the forums yet, is when the Orphan gives Neo the spoon. I mean come on! How much metaphor is in that!

metaphor for what? Thought it was really cool though.

For Neo to release his mind. To let go of the rules... To grasp new ideas and possibilities etc.

Actually i thought the spoon represented "Hey neo, time to eat that grey grool!"
Cause i didnt see him eat the entire movie. What is with that!

Joking you cretins!

Been good reading all these ideas, got some new info and that transcript of the Achitech and neo was very handy.

The Spoon thing is interesting, also the kid that he has aparently saved and doesn't like.

the zion1010 thing is a good theory, probably just thrown in there for people to see and go 'wow, look what I found'

The french guy being the previous 'the one' I don't think is right, I remember sitting watching it for the second time and somethign being said that kinda proved he wasn't.

I dont think the Realworld is another matrix, i think the matrix has the power to download stuff to people, and with agen't smiths new abilities, he was able to take him over in the matrix (as he does the other agents) thus making him bad IRL. But the realworld as another matrix would be quite interesting and would't be too far fetched.

But yeh, I cannot wait untill the 3rd one. I thought the second was excelent, and I guess it will all be tied together in 6 months time.

yes i think there's a lot of red herring's within the movie, such as the red lolly the oracle offers to neo. the zion1010 probably fits into this category. as for the spoon thingy - an interesting point you make there, and i would agree. good work, i missed that one :)
another point is the title - why is it called reloaded? apart from the obvious that they are making another entrance into the matrix and are hence 'reloading' it (reference to the cyber-punk setting), it also refers to the (theorised) task of the one within the matrix.

nice siggy btw :)

I think the average movie go'ers view on reloaded is the fact that they are back in action after the near fatal experence in the first one.

I dont really agree with these - but still its amusing :)

Good point neo

Also the spoon could build on the idea that zion is "another matrix" as in the first matrix the orphan tells neo to focus on the truth that "there is no spoon"

Quote from Illusions:
(reference to the cyber-punk setting)

William Gibson is a god, Neuromancer an epiphany.

Frankly, Wintermute could dominate the Architect. Sssssa-mackdown!

I mean seriously, how many Gibson lift-outs were there? Dub, rebel cities, AIs with mysterious purpose ...

All we need now is some Legbas and a hint of alien contact ...

Good call Captn

i was considering doing Neuromancer for my next wider reading journal. how good is it? heh i think it'll be a bit of a task comparing it to Huckleberry Finn though :D