Sorry to the "stolen" Generation

The Stolen Generations Alliance (SGA) have issued a list of demands to the Government regarding the 'sorry'
It includes their demands for
1. Teaching students in primary and high school - about how Aboriginal kids were "stolen"
2. Free medical treatment for the rest of their lives
3. Financial assistance to buy their own homes
4. Healing homes
The list goes on, 50+ demands.

The Government has certainly opened a can of worms. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

im sorry but i think ever australian should be treated equally, regardless of their skin colour

Hahahaha!!

You have to spend most of your life in the army to get bennifits like that. How are the decendants of the stolen generation nowadays? Pretty damn good im sure, compared to being in the povo communities or whatever the hell there prior slow changing circumstances where.. but I could be totally wrong, correct me if I am.

ps: I know a white man who is from the original stolen generation the one from ENGLAND-area!! and you dont see him sooking like this!

Someone better point out to them that the first three things on that list are already occurring.
Oh wait they might need a billion dollars to help them understand that.
Do they really think kruddypants is going to create a slush fund for this? Doubt it.
Don't want to feel lost or stolen or out of place in the scheme of things?

1. Get a job.
2. Buy your own house.
3. Contribute to society.
4. And quit your bitching, Kenny.

I expect the bleeding hearts to denounce me for these views, so have prepared a retort in advance.

"Meh."

Quote:
im sorry but i think ever australian should be treated equally, regardless of their skin colour

So you think we should stop giving the coons the thousands of handouts they already get per year? Me too! Why do they get more money then me just because they are black! The ones who got jibbed (and their LIVING family of that time) are the only people who should be compensated. Not some random coon who was born a month ago - what the **** has the stolen generation got to do with a new born aboriginal - **** ALL that's what!

I agree with compensation the ones who were affected - but GO **** YOURSELF if you think you're gunna get money because your dad/gdad/ggdad got screwed years ago...

unless things have changed in teh last 24 hours - yesterdays news said that Rudd has already announced that this is just a formal apology to start the "healing" process between them and us, and there is to be no compensation fund setup for any of them at all.

The problem here is that when the government says sorry, they are admitting liability and fault legally. This will mean anyone who was part of the stolen generation will be able to sue for a metric **** tonne of money as the government has already admitted guilt.

Add on to that their kids, grandkids, etc who will proceed to do the same thing.

Its going to create a whole new pile of bullshit so instead of "OMFG SAY SORRY GAIZ" it's going to be "OMFG WHEREZ MY MILLION DOLLARZ GAIZ?"

give them a billion dollars now, and not a cent more, ever again after that.

either that or buy a shitload of plaster of paris and fill in that chip on their shoulder, might help in eliminating that sense of entitlement they seem to have.

imo it's been demonstratably proven that handouts and freebies do nothing except create a welfare state with almost no hope of being able to climb out of it. if you're going to give out housing, include the people in the construction process, maybe if they need to work toward it they'll develop a sense of pride and be less likely to tear down the roof for a raging bonfire.

dry communities help a lot, jail alcohol traffickers for life if they're busted trying to sell goon in the communities. but most of all, stfu and try and help yourselves.

Not sure how many of the stolen generation live on communities. It seems a bit like they're all lawyers and uni lecturers.

Tough life eh..

Asking the current government (even the last one) to accept responsibility on behalf of the government for a idealogy that is decades old, would be akin to the current German government saying sorry and accepting responsibility for what the Nazi party did (lead to) back before WWII.

It's nice to say sorry and all, but restitution? They'll help where they can, but be realistic for **** sake... So much for moving 'forward'.

They don't have to be realistic.
They're black.

Thatd be a funny comment if it wasnt ****ing true :-/

I work with a few of the stolen generation and they are only about 50 years old by the way. They are all in really high positions - well educated. Raking in the money. Do you know any stolen generation which is actually worse off from being stolen?

White people get there kids taken from them all time if they can't look after them. This needs to be enforced better within the black community.

^^ Exactly

My work takes me regularly to almost every community in the Territory, I see the neglect and abuse these kids suffer. If these were white kids they would have been taken a long time ago, and just like the "stolen" generation they would be far better off.

wouldn't the g'ment create legislation which makes them immune to these kinds of law suits. a legal flashing, bouncing star if you will.

Requesting pics of flashing bouncing star.

they cant every time they try they get called racist

I hate to find myself on the side of lefties, but in my opinion it should be read out and done with. Then we can back to focusing on objective problems.

If they want to forestall legal claims they'll just write in a few paras in an Act of Parliament.

well i only have preliminary sketches but i imagine it would look something like this:

Quote from Wrathlon;337849:
The problem here is that when the government says sorry, they are admitting liability and fault legally.

only just saw this. it's easy to apologise without admitting any sort of culpability.

'im sorry to hear your dad died' doesn't automatically imply i was responsible for his death.

honestly they expect todays society to apologize for something that probably didn't happen in there life time? I understand they want compensation for being forcefully removed and thats understood... but what if they want us to payout, on top of what we already have given, is just plain stupid.

I can definably see 50 yrs down the track some little bastard will get offended after hearing about his great, great great granddad/ma was stolen and wants compensation...

and they as for a list of demands... it sounds like there saying
"you cant live without us so give us what we want and we wont leave"
I honestly ****ing hate people that dont move on in life...
why don't they just be like the Indians and just make casino's ...

we work and earn money... so can they
we work like a bastard to build homes for them... and what are there current state?
we offer services and they complain we don't give enough for there habits
they try to reclaim land that MAYBE sacred, and they give no notice until a developer actually wants to build on that land. (on this issue they should announce as much actual sacred land to prevent this from happing in the future)

now I personally actually do like aboriginals as they are a good type of people ... its just im sick and tired of hearing the same shit, and it seems like its only a small group re-opening the wound/issue instead of leaving it be.

Sorry needs to be said. But on that I agree compensation is rubbish - as stated earlier it wasn't much different from white kids being taken away by social services (except for the whole carted to a different country and treated like performing monkeys being taught civilisation thing).

You're missing the cultural aspect though. This is a race whose very identity is passed from generation to generation by verbal stories/knowledge. Now specific bits of knowledge are only passed on to individuals who meet certain criteria: women from this area, men from there, men who are related to women from yaddayadda etc. Taking any kids out of that mix runs the risk of losing an arc of their heritage that can never be regained.

I admit, I havent followed any of the arguments around this in the press, but I suspect the above is another part of it that hasn't been covered in this thread.

Im just hoping that this grab for cash by certain parts of the aboriginal community backfire and has the rest of the aboriginal community and other general populus of Australia to say no and end all legal rights for compensation and some of the other things that is happening in the name of aboriginal hertiage to be looked at in a non "political correct" way. Hopefully this will lead to real help to go where its needed and the other winers to be slapped.

Quote:
honestly they expect todays society to apologize for something that probably didn't happen in there life time?

The government -- The Commonwealth of Australia -- is a legal personality which continues to remain the same legal person throughout time, regardless of who actually forms it. Rudd is apologising for the government. He is not apologising for "society" or some other fuzzy thing; he can't.

In 3 years time this will all seem like the most uninteresting, most obvious and most pointlessly delayed outcome. Really, it's just not such a big deal except for the people who are upset. It costs nothing and they say it will help them to feel better. There's no downside except for scaremongering and race-baiting. Too ****ing bad, IMO, as a country we're better than that.

Quote from El Presidente;337902:
The government -- The Commonwealth of Australia -- is a legal personality which continues to remain the same legal person throughout time, regardless of who actually forms it.
i personally didn't know that and thank you for informing me.

Quote from El Presidente;337902:

It costs nothing and they say it will help them to feel better. There's no downside except for scaremongering and race-baiting. Too ****ing bad, IMO, as a country we're better than that.

your probably right about that too.

what im more concerned about is if the government does apologize (if they haven't already i don't know) and the government pays out now? whats to stop aboriginals 50-70 yrs down the track claiming they didn't receive enough payment or benefits and re-starts the whole drama again?

after reading about the part about the law side of the government, then yes they should apologize but no demands should be accepted.. if they want an apology then thats fine... they already receive compensation on a daily basis that the rest of australia miss out or are not entitled to receive..

There are probably countless numbers of kids still stuck inside broken homes that are begging to be stolen right now.

yeah broken homes thats a nice way to put it

Quote from dragon xr;337905:

what im more concerned about is if the government does apologize (if they haven't already i don't know) and the government pays out now? whats to stop aboriginals 50-70 yrs down the track claiming they didn't receive enough payment or benefits and re-starts the whole drama again?

In theory nothing. In practice the High Court and the 1000-year old legal principle of stare decisis.

If compensation is sought and won through the courts, that will end the matter. If it's assigned through Parliament, they can more or less end the matter too.

randy, i smell a black shit blizzard

Quote from Minorci;337931:
randy, i smell a black shit blizzard

That's a fairly obscure reference.

Go from here, now, and tell them about the squirrels.

istn sorry like a pennhy in s dop of water its like ahving yhour ****ieng morther say i didnt give biyth to your beachcae your a fun loven loteic with a way of likfte thats like no athers aruojjdnd your you feucking peice of shit moufo biotch slap pussuhuy dols rages, but9 if doesnt understand the hole isssues how manys peopls are we sayiung sorry to if onlt y half are gettnig the rights amounty of compentatsoin today?o idn dont suntautnd jeeebuhyads/131

Quote from psyave;337953:
istn sorry like a pennhy in s dop of water its like ahving yhour ****ieng morther say i didnt give biyth to your beachcae your a fun loven loteic with a way of likfte thats like no athers aruojjdnd your you feucking peice of shit moufo biotch slap pussuhuy dols rages, but9 if doesnt understand the hole isssues how manys peopls are we sayiung sorry to if onlt y half are gettnig the rights amounty of compentatsoin today?o idn dont suntautnd jeeebuhyads/131

Quoted for Truuf!

Quote from psyave;337953:
istn sorry like a pennhy in s dop of water its like ahving yhour ****ieng morther say i didnt give biyth to your beachcae your a fun loven loteic with a way of likfte thats like no athers aruojjdnd your you feucking peice of shit moufo biotch slap pussuhuy dols rages, but9 if doesnt understand the hole isssues how manys peopls are we sayiung sorry to if onlt y half are gettnig the rights amounty of compentatsoin today?o idn dont suntautnd jeeebuhyads/131

Drunk posts are always win :p

Quote from psyave;337953:
istn sorry like a pennhy in s dop of water its like ahving yhour ****ieng morther say i didnt give biyth to your beachcae your a fun loven loteic with a way of likfte thats like no athers aruojjdnd your you feucking peice of shit moufo biotch slap pussuhuy dols rages, but9 if doesnt understand the hole isssues how manys peopls are we sayiung sorry to if onlt y half are gettnig the rights amounty of compentatsoin today?o idn dont suntautnd jeeebuhyads/131

... interesting language, you'll have to teach it to me sometime :P

(just finishing watching dexter series 1, CELEBRATE!!! :P)

Quote from psyave;337953:
istn sorry like a pennhy in s dop of water its like ahving yhour ****ieng morther say i didnt give biyth to your beachcae your a fun loven loteic with a way of likfte thats like no athers aruojjdnd your you feucking peice of shit moufo biotch slap pussuhuy dols rages, but9 if doesnt understand the hole isssues how manys peopls are we sayiung sorry to if onlt y half are gettnig the rights amounty of compentatsoin today?o idn dont suntautnd jeeebuhyads/131

/thread

Quote from psyave;337953:
istn sorry like a pennhy in s dop of water its like ahving yhour ****ieng morther say i didnt give biyth to your beachcae your a fun loven loteic with a way of likfte thats like no athers aruojjdnd your you feucking peice of shit moufo biotch slap pussuhuy dols rages, but9 if doesnt understand the hole isssues how manys peopls are we sayiung sorry to if onlt y half are gettnig the rights amounty of compentatsoin today?o idn dont suntautnd jeeebuhyads/131

someone has been eating acid :-D

Quote from Minorci;337981:
someone has been eating acid :-D

sulphuric though ;P

Downed a tad to much beer fri/sat.

Quote from psyave;338031:
Downed a tad to much beer fri/sat.

Not enough IMO, some words were legible.

Quote from Kagetsu;337874:
Asking the current government (even the last one) to accept responsibility on behalf of the government for a idealogy that is decades old, would be akin to the current German government saying sorry and accepting responsibility for what the Nazi party did (lead to) back before WWII.

It's nice to say sorry and all, but restitution? They'll help where they can, but be realistic for **** sake... So much for moving 'forward'.

The german government continues to pay for what the nazi party did in WWII... theyre economy is hurting because of it. Damn juden just keep wanting more.

Quote from jimmy;338070:
Damn juden just keep wanting more.

This thread is seriously starting to creep me out.

compensation should be given to help people find their families actually. That's my opinion and not a penny more.

Quote from SperO;338132:
compensation should be given to help people find their families actually. That's my opinion and not a penny more.

+1,
good idea but is this already on the list of demands? why are they even bothering with material objects instead of actually looking for there family in the first pace, I though family's meant more to an average person.

Quote from SperO;338132:
compensation should be given to help people find their families actually. That's my opinion and not a penny more.

I honestly never thought of that- **** knows why not cause its blindingly obvious - but I agree.

cool. hook up all the stolen generation with some random long grassers so they can see how much better off they are!

you know a lot of stolen generation were taken without just cause. They weren't necessarily living in disease and poverty thats just what the white man thought.

The governement already does provide help to the stolen generation to find their families.

What about all the white kids that were put into catholic boarding homes?
Quite a number of those were put there against will. Not to mention alot of them have no records of events that took place, including family details.

My father was one of them.

That explains you then, Milenko :p

Howard: We'll say sorry, as long as their is a clause that the current government is not lawfully liable for compensations and open to and joe blow to sue us...

ATSIC: Umm...no not really, we kind of hoped on getting some money out of this. you know. for like, nothing.

Howard: Ok then you black assholes can get ****ed.

howard didnt say shit for good reason :P

Got this in an e-mail today.
SORRY...
AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.
We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language
and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.
We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.
We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you
from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.
We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins/dogs you used before.
We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.
We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the instalments.
We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.
We apologise for giving each and every member of your family "00.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.
We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.
We apologise for giving you interest free loans.
We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.
We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.
We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters' wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)
We apologise for giving you ".7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.
We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of ".2 billion each year.
We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the "uncle toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.
We do apologise. We really do.
We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.
We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.

This from today's Crikey:

Editor of The National Indigenous Times Chris Graham writes:

There's nothing like a little 'sorry' debate to get white Australia all red and puffy. Here's a punter's guide to exploding 10 of the more virulent myths surrounding a national apology to members of the Stolen Generations:

It was done by a previous generation.
Not correct. Of all the Stolen Generations myths, this is the biggest. If it were "previous generations", then surely there'd be no-one left to apologize to? The facts are that the removal of Aboriginal children continued well into the 1960s and early 1970s. It's worth noting it was absolutely raging during the late 1950s, when a small, lispy man named John Howard was serving as president of the NSW Young Liberals.

Saying sorry won't deliver better results in health, housing or education.
Here's a surprising revelation for you -- saying sorry is not supposed to deliver health, housing and education. Equally, saying sorry won't prevent governments from delivering health, housing and education. This particular objection is perhaps the dumbest of them all and is run by conservatives like Warren Mundine, Noel Pearson and The Australian. Its fundamental flaw is that it relies on the premise that Australia is so backward as a nation we can't deliver practical outcomes while simultaneously delivering symbolic gestures. In other words, we can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

I will not be made to feel guilt and shame for something I didn't do.
In the case of younger Australians who were not alive during the removal practices, the word 'Sorry' does not have to be an expression of shame or guilt. It can be an expression of empathy, as in 'I'm sorry to hear your mum died' or 'I'm sorry you got hurt in that car accident'. Personally, I was born in 1972 when government started to abandon the removal policies. I don't feel shame at my personal actions, but I do feel shame at the actions of my country. As for older Australians, many claim 'I had nothing to do with it'. Well, that's part of the problem ? bad things happen when good people stay silent. The point is not that older Australians participated in the removal process, but that they did nothing to stop it. Saying 'But I didn't know it was happening' is certainly more than sufficient to keep you out of a court of law, but it's not enough to excuse you from a collective national apology. If you're still confused on this front, you might recall that several years ago, John Howard apologized to Vietnam Veterans for their treatment when they returned from the war. Again, having been born in 1972, I didn't mistreat Vietnam Veterans. But I had absolutely no problem with the PM saying sorry to them on my behalf, because I am sorry (and I ashamed for my nation) that they were treated so poorly.

Some Aboriginal leaders have said an apology is not important.
Sure, but almost every one of them (hi Warren, hi Noel!) are not members of the Stolen Generations. Their views on whether or not an apology is warranted are no more or less relevant than your or my view? because none of us are victims.

Aboriginal people can't even agree on an apology.
Wow, Aboriginal people have this amazing thing called 'independent thought'. The facts are that some members of the Stolen Generations don't want an apology. That's their right. But the overwhelming majority do. That's also their right.

It costs us nothing.
Contrary to popular opinion, a national apology will have no legal affect on the capacity of members of the Stolen Generations to seek compensation. As a nation, an apology costs us nothing. Period.

I didn't do it!
No, you didn't. But you certainly benefited from it. Just as all Australians today, even some black Australians (hi Noel, hi Warren!) have directly benefited from the theft of Aboriginal land, all Australians have benefited from the removal of Aboriginal children. Why? Because almost all children who were removed to government institutions were then forced to work for the government or private citizens for little or no pay. In America, they called that process slavery. In Australia, we called it 'apprenticeships'.
In December 2006, both the federal parliament released a report supported by the ALP and the Liberals acknowledging the stolen wages scandal.

The people who performed the removals were good people who did a bad thing.
Big deal. Good people do bad things all the time, but that doesn't mean they're excused from apologising.

It won't affect white Australia, so why worry?
The removals practice AND the use of this issue by John Howard as a race wedge is a stain on white Australia's recent past. Just as Aboriginal people need an apology to move on, white Australia needs to apologise to move on.

Saying sorry won't change the past.
Sadly, it won't. But it will have a massive impact on the future. That's the whole point. A real apology will mean an enormous amount to Aboriginal people. I still can't fathom what sort of a nation would deny them one.

Interesting points Bamster.

Heres my 2 cents:

Saying sorry is a symbolic thing. White Australia needs to apologise for what its done to the Aboriginal people. Its pretty pathetic that Australians are so narrow minded that they can't empathise with the situation Aboriginal families were put in.

Then they have to come up with a constructive way to bring the Aboriginal race out of the gutter and make their living standards equal to the rest of Australia. Throwing money and medical services obviously doesn't achieve anything. I don't want my tax dollars spent by abos on VB & winny reds. The government etc needs to address the cultural and social requirements of the Aborigines rather than throw endless tax dollars at them.

goddamn labor shills!

Quote:

In America, they called that process slavery. In Australia, we called it 'apprenticeships'.

Cool.
My apprenticeship was actually slavery.
I demand an apology.

and a free house.

Quote from Bam Stroker;338338:
This from today's Crikey:
It was done by a previous generation.
Not correct. Of all the Stolen Generations myths, this is the biggest. If it were "previous generations", then surely there'd be no-one left to apologize to? The facts are that the removal of Aboriginal children continued well into the 1960s and early 1970s. It's worth noting it was absolutely raging during the late 1950s, when a small, lispy man named John Howard was serving as president of the NSW Young Liberals.

psst Dan.. there was an election - he's last generation ;P

and ignoring the silliness of that comment, it was actually a previous generation - surely they understand that generation in terms of humans is 25-30 years. silly journos.

They're asking the wrong government to apologise to begin with. Don't know why Rudd apologised to them in the first place. The free health care, financial assistance etc are just band-aid fixes. I can imagine the stolen generation's mental and physical health was probably compromised by what happened, but they are much better off now and nothing our government does now can reverse the damage done. I don't have a problem with our current government offering a sincere apology to the stolen generation on behalf of the Australian public, because the government which organised the whole thing no longer has the opportunity to apologise in the same way. I do, however, believe that if we give the stolen generation what they want now, they'll just keep asking for more and more, because the impact of the stolen generation cannot be assigned a monetary value.

Btw, the allowances that more recent generations of indigenous people get now are hardly related to the stolen generation issue. It's just a failed attempt to get them to adopt a more socially acceptable, "white" lifestyle, and it's blatant discrimination.

Quote from Bam Stroker;338338:

It was done by a previous generation.
Not correct. Of all the Stolen Generations myths, this is the biggest. If it were "previous generations", then surely there'd be no-one left to apologize to? The facts are that the removal of Aboriginal children continued well into the 1960s and early 1970s.

someone clearly doesn't know what a generation is. pretty much by definition you are in a different generation to your parents, as they were in a different one than theirs.

Quote from that stupid article:
It's worth noting it was absolutely raging during the late 1950s, when a small, lispy man named John Howard was serving as president of the NSW Young Liberals.

it's worth noting that the 1950's was the generation before mine, and i was born at the latter end of 'my generation'. it's also incredibly likely that the people in decision making positions at the time were in their 40's and 50's at the time, making them another couple of generations behind again. so yes, it was very much done by previous generations. but dont worry, the article managed to relate the whole thing back to john howard, because clearly as president of the young liberals, he was the main architect of forced aboriginal relocation.

Quote from more soapboxing from the article:
Saying sorry won't deliver better results in health, housing or education.
Here's a surprising revelation for you -- saying sorry is not supposed to deliver health, housing and education. Equally, saying sorry won't prevent governments from delivering health, housing and education. This particular objection is perhaps the dumbest of them all and is run by conservatives like Warren Mundine, Noel Pearson and The Australian. Its fundamental flaw is that it relies on the premise that Australia is so backward as a nation we can't deliver practical outcomes while simultaneously delivering symbolic gestures. In other words, we can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

that'd be a decent point if there wasn't all this clamoring for compensation in addition to the apology.

Quote from a basically valid point:

I will not be made to feel guilt and shame for something I didn't do.
In the case of younger Australians who were not alive during the removal practices, the word 'Sorry' does not have to be an expression of shame or guilt. It can be an expression of empathy, as in 'I'm sorry to hear your mum died' or 'I'm sorry you got hurt in that car accident'. Personally, I was born in 1972 when government started to abandon the removal policies. I don't feel shame at my personal actions, but I do feel shame at the actions of my country. As for older Australians, many claim 'I had nothing to do with it'. Well, that's part of the problem ? bad things happen when good people stay silent. The point is not that older Australians participated in the removal process, but that they did nothing to stop it. Saying 'But I didn't know it was happening' is certainly more than sufficient to keep you out of a court of law, but it's not enough to excuse you from a collective national apology. If you're still confused on this front, you might recall that several years ago, John Howard apologized to Vietnam Veterans for their treatment when they returned from the war. Again, having been born in 1972, I didn't mistreat Vietnam Veterans. But I had absolutely no problem with the PM saying sorry to them on my behalf, because I am sorry (and I ashamed for my nation) that they were treated so poorly.

i'm just quoting this because i'm amazed it mentioned john howard in a non-negative light.

Quote from more rambling:

Some Aboriginal leaders have said an apology is not important.
Sure, but almost every one of them (hi Warren, hi Noel!) are not members of the Stolen Generations. Their views on whether or not an apology is warranted are no more or less relevant than your or my view? because none of us are victims.

sorry, but mine, and everyone elses views are important. why? because we're the people the apology will be on behalf of.

Quote from more crap:

Aboriginal people can't even agree on an apology.
Wow, Aboriginal people have this amazing thing called 'independent thought'. The facts are that some members of the Stolen Generations don't want an apology. That's their right. But the overwhelming majority do. That's also their right.

source for these facts please.

Quote from hahahaha:

It costs us nothing.
Contrary to popular opinion, a national apology will have no legal affect on the capacity of members of the Stolen Generations to seek compensation. As a nation, an apology costs us nothing. Period.

not stopping the so-called aboriginal leaders and activists demanding a huge compensatory handout. not stopping them saying 'any apology is meaningless without a bigass cheque attached to it'.

Quote from omgrusrs:

I didn't do it!
No, you didn't. But you certainly benefited from it. Just as all Australians today, even some black Australians (hi Noel, hi Warren!) have directly benefited from the theft of Aboriginal land

why is it, that in the entire age of human civilisation, where lands and borders were constantly changing through wars and conquering nations, it's only the aboriginals whose land was 'stolen' ? it's a recurrent theme throughout history that the more advanced nations would prosper at the expense of those who were stagnating.

Quote from yawn:

It won't affect white Australia, so why worry?
The removals practice AND the use of this issue by John Howard as a race wedge is a stain on white Australia's recent past. Just as Aboriginal people need an apology to move on, white Australia needs to apologise to move on.

nobody needs an apology to 'move on'. it's called building a bridge and getting over it. the chip on the shoulder can be removed at any time. only thing holding it on a ridiculous sense of entitlement.

Quote from blahblah:

Saying sorry won't change the past.
Sadly, it won't. But it will have a massive impact on the future. That's the whole point. A real apology will mean an enormous amount to Aboriginal people. I still can't fathom what sort of a nation would deny them one.

pretty sure an apology won't mean jack shit to the majority of aboriginal people. it's pretty clear they want compensation, and without it they're not going to be happy.

i'm all for saying sorry it happened, no problem with that, but unless there are some pretty goddamn drastic changes in the approach to aboriginal welfare i don't see an apology having much impact at all.

I'm not trying to sound racist here - I'm all for apologising, but all along history when one civilisation conquers (sp?) another, the guys who are invaded have 2 choices. They either stay and adopt the language and culture of the new civilisation or they flee.

Sure the British had muskets and the Aboriginals had spears, but what was stopping them from developing said weapons? I know they didn't really need to due to the way in thich they perfected the art of hunting and the Engligh tribes have been killing eachother and developing weapons to do so for hundreds of years - I get that. But Rome wasn't kind when they went all over and took over europe either - do you hear everyone complaining about them?

(P.S: Cheers Rome for your yummy eats, I quite like Caesar Salads)

If we said "sorry" do you think all of the things said about the stolen generation would be dropped?

NO

Is it just me or do I get the feeling that they are holding the country hostage, demanding everything they see and are not going to settle to come out of the bank?

Oh, another thing. I don't think they have heard of places like Colombia where children get stolen from their houses every day and sold as sex slaves to drug-dealing crime lords. Sure we did bad, but it could have been MUCH worse.

If they want compensation after an apology is given, make them work for it - community service is a good place to start with an idea like this make them clean up the rubbish that they leave down at your local park. They are claiming this as their land, let them clean it up.

w/e I'm waay too tired to keep on going.

yeah what paladin said.

when i read the words: "It costs us nothing" i almost swollowed my tongue.

but they should have done what most other conquering nations did, is just slaughter them all, so they cant whinge at us 50 years later about how bad it was. and ask for money and appologies. well, at least you have your life.

Quote from Aegis;338344:
psst Dan.. there was an election

Yeah, I think I remember reading something about that. Wasn't that the one where the majority of Australian voters elected a party who had a national apology to the stolen generation as a well established, long-standing part of their platform?

In light of that, if I were opposed to an apology I'd probably just be chilling for the time being and give it about 10 or 15 years, wait and see if anything changes and if not then roll out the "I told you so." to the bleeding hearts out there. Of course, if I did that I wouldn't be able to rail with bilious indignation on the internet right now and where's the fun in that?

Successive Australian governments at both state and federal levels have poured billions of dollars into the Indigenous "issue". Then, when they have the temerity to ask for something - as opposed to being told what they're going to get - in this case an apology that won't cost us a cent, we still call them ungrateful and point to our wallets anyway. Nice one.

Quote from Bam Stroker;338361:
Yeah, I think I remember reading something about that. Wasn't that the one where the majority of Australian voters elected a party who had a national apology to the stolen generation as a well established, long-standing part of their platform?

I don't agree with all of Labors choices I just agree with them more then I do Liberal and I think its ludicrous to suggest people against the apology shouldn't have voted Labor in the first place :/

If we cut their funding and offered them jobs suited to their education/ offered them education to get better jobs, it would be a good idea in practice, but their elders wouldn't be so embracing of said plan for themselves - so we put them (their elders) on a standard Pension and make the cut off at 50 years old.

What about the small communities Papa?

Well we slowly establish self-generating communities where the local folk work to keep the community going (it's already being done in some small places).

What aboiut alcoholism in small communities?

If we take the approach of having food stamps available, as well as clean clothes and utilities to do so, we can eliminate the need for money in smaller towns and therefore eliminate the need for paying LOADS of cash where it would be spent on booze, pornos etc.

/bah

Quote from SperO;338362:
I don't agree with all of Labors choices I just agree with them more then I do Liberal and I think its ludicrous to suggest people against the apology shouldn't have voted Labor in the first place :/

If someone felt that strongy opposed to it then no, they shouldn't have voted for Labor. It's even more ludicrous to vote for someone and then get upset when they go ahead and do exactly what they said they were going to do.

Quote from PapaDom;338359:

(P.S: Cheers Rome for your yummy eats, I quite like Caesar Salads)

Off Topic....

The Caesar salad was invented by Caesar Cardini in America in the 1930's when he ran out of salad dressing, and just dumped all his left overs into a bowl of lettuce.

/Off topic.

IMHO, I have a feeling that when Rudd moved towards the notion of saying "sorry" it won him the election.

Also, Johnny should have scrapped workplace agreements.

Quote from Bam Stroker;338368:
If someone felt that strongy opposed to it then no, they shouldn't have voted for Labor. It's even more ludicrous to vote for someone and then get upset when they go ahead and do exactly what they said they were going to do.

oh what a load of horseshit. you essentially have two parties to choose from. nobody is going to agree with all policies of either party. everyone is quite within their rights to vote for a party and then be vocal in disagreeing with some of their policies. just because you agree with them on most things doesn't mean you can't be vehemently opposed to them on others.

Quote from BrAiN DaNcE;338370:
Off Topic....

The Caesar salad was invented by Caesar Cardini in America in the 1930's when he ran out of salad dressing, and just dumped all his left overs into a bowl of lettuce.

/Off topic.

Damn, and here I have been thinking all these year while enjoying my salads what Caesar himself would have in his mix, or if he liked alot of croutons in his salad etc.

Quote from paladin;338372:
oh what a load of horseshit. you essentially have two parties to choose from. nobody is going to agree with all policies of either party. everyone is quite within their rights to vote for a party and then be vocal in disagreeing with some of their policies. just because you agree with them on most things doesn't mean you can't be vehemently opposed to them on others.

Have you even been to a party's national conference? You don't need to tell me that there can't be differing viewpoints within the one party. There are, and they're often subjects of vigorous debate, if not outright hostility.

And besides I said if they felt "that strongly opposed to it" and I chose those words specifically because if you like 90% of Labor's policies but had a deep fundamental disagreement with the last 10% then you really should ought to consider voting for someone else. It's not just about yes and no, it's also about degrees of yes and no.

I'm sure many people who voted for Labor were actually indifferent about the apology and were motivated to back Rudd & Co. on other issues. Nonetheless Labor won, an apology comes with that and soon it will be rendered in Parliament. Will it make a difference? Who knows, but it's one thing we haven't tried yet.

Quote from PapaDom;338367:

What about the small communities Papa?

Well we slowly establish self-generating communities where the local folk work to keep the community going (it's already being done in some small places).

Which communities are doing this? I've been to heaps of them can only recall them painting pictures and trying to sell them.
Used to make me wonder why they don't try and be self sufficient, plant some vegetables, keep some animals for food.

it's degrees of dislike isn't it. if you are strongly opposed to the apology, but equally strongly opposed to two policies of the other party, then who do you vote for? it's not like the apology was a cornerstone party policy now is it, you can hardly claim a mandate to deliver it.

dissenting opinions are incredibly important, and there's nothing wrong shouting your dislike loud and clear

Quote from Evil @ngel;338308:
Got this in an e-mail today.
SORRY...
AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the instalments.
We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.
We apologise for giving each and every member of your family "00.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.
We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.
We apologise for giving you interest free loans.
We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.
We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.
We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters' wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)
We apologise for giving you ".7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.
We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of ".2 billion each year.

is there a source with those figures apart from some unknown ATSIC person

pala makes good points imo.

Quote from 'papadom':
Sure the British had muskets and the Aboriginals had spears, but what was stopping them from developing said weapons?

have a read of 'Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies' by Jared Diamond. answers questions like that one really well. here's a blurb about it from wiki:

"But the book is not merely an account of the past; it attempts to explain why Eurasian civilizations, as a whole, have survived and conquered others, while refuting the belief that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, genetic or moral superiority. Diamond argues that the gaps in power and technology between human societies do not reflect cultural or racial differences, but rather originate in environmental differences powerfully amplified by various positive feedback loops. He also, most explicitly in the epilogue, argues that societies with food surpluses and high-to-moderate degrees of interaction with outsiders are more likely to encourage great people to realize their full potential and to adopt new inventions."

it's a little dry reading at times but I found it really interesting.

Quote from Bam Stroker;338361:
Yeah, I think I remember reading something about that. Wasn't that the one where the majority of Australian voters elected a party who had a national apology to the stolen generation as a well established, long-standing part of their platform?

No that was the election were the majority of Australian voters elected not to have Johnny and his workchoices in again. Any other consideration is waaay down the list.
Heck I followed the election leadup reasonably closely, definitely more than Joe average and I don't recall Rudd/labour saying that they would definitely apologize. All I remember is the workchoices/Johnny's a prick slant.

Paladin ++

Word.

Should just say sorry they are well on the decline anyway

/OT

OOOOOOOOOW **** ME IN DE GOATARSE

OT/

Lately it has been a common theme of every single fast food restaurant I have been to decorating their walls with signs informing us of their need for staff - So at this time in our country I do not believe it can be hard to find a job. This said, I believe all Australian Citizens should be given the exact same rules, rights and $$ figure by the government, regardless of gender/race or sexual orientation.

As a continuation - To reduce the amount of people 'bludging' off the dole (white/black/purple) - I believe a mandatory community service should be introduced. That way everybody contributes, even if they cannot genuinely attain work. Several hours of community service a week wouldn't do anyone harm, it would teach some people the value of money, and lastly everyone will benefit from the cleaner streets, newly painted roads etc. created by the people in the welfare system.

im from the new stolen generashon. them wite fellaz came picked me up from nightcliff yestaday morning and then stole me over to baggot this mornin.

Quote from Evil @ngel;338407:
No that was the election were the majority of Australian voters elected not to have Johnny and his workchoices in again. Any other consideration is waaay down the list.

YEAH??? Well...

...

F-ck.

Anyway, Sper0 called me out when I started getting ahead of myself a page or two ago. I'll let the last substantive comment I've made in this discussion the "let's wait and see" I did at the end of my last post and leave it at that.

i laugh at politics, and people who understand little :P

I don't give a rat's ****ing arse what you think of this issue, but...

Rudd - you da man.

why is he the man exactly?

RUMBLE!!

/backs away...

Quote from OverDrive;339142:
I don't give a rat's ****ing arse what you think of this issue, but...

Rudd - you da man.

Why is he the man?

He's said sorry - now what?

It's just words.

Rudd's great leap forward | Herald Sun

although this is probably a little over the top, it is a good read none the less. and i dont bother read stuff that often :P

and im pretty sure andrew bolt is a bible basher too, so his credibility isnt great to begin with.

Words you liberal hacks couldn't manage... anyway, not getting into an argument about this - unless you want to do it in person.

Look above - it's pretty ****ing obvious where you guys sit. Oh well - I hope your type are a dying breed.

lol, you do understand how hipocritical we all are. not just liberals. all of us. Saying sorry is hipocritical.

but you are right. internet fighting is lame. maybe the next time we have a drink dan ;)

all i know, is i don't feel remorse, so why should i lie about being sorry?

yeah because the world would be a much better place without dissenting opinions. wouldn't it be great if everyone just mindlessly accepted what someone told them.

Free love and LSD baby yeaaaah. oh wait that was aids.

I'm glad rudd said sorry leave it to the jesters to please the crowd :)

This day, I am very proud to be an AUSTRALIAN.

I said it before elsewhere, Australians do the right thing, not for any other merit, but simply because Australians see the merit in doing what is right, no matter how difficult it may seem.

DAMN PROUD TO BE AUSTRALIAN!!!

he said sorry but he did it in a way in which he didnt admit any legal liability so its good that he said it. Dont know if itll appease anyone though.

Hasn't and won't stop the flood of calls for compensation though.
Sugar coat it all you want, but face it, that has always been the motive.

Quote from OverG;339193:
This day, I am very proud to be an AUSTRALIAN.

I said it before elsewhere, Australians do the right thing, not for any other merit, but simply because Australians see the merit in doing what is right, no matter how difficult it may seem.

DAMN PROUD TO BE AUSTRALIAN!!!

Ironically, trying to do the right thing is why we have to say sorry.

Watch the speeches; they're up on youtube. Our new PM gave a calm and precise little speech which was absolutely marvelous; who knew the nerd had it in him? If it was Bob Hawke there'd have been some crocodile tears, if it was Keating we'd all be angry, if it was Howard we'd never have heard it. Rudd got it right.

Now that the air has been cleared of this one word, we can get on with the heavy lifting.

So...can we go back to our normal everyday double standards and "oppression" now?

I started reading and couldn't read through all the BULLSHIT.
Quote from PandaN;337846:
So you think we should stop giving the ####s the thousands of handouts they already get per year? Me too! Why do they get more money then me just because they are black! The ones who got jibbed (and their LIVING family of that time) are the only people who should be compensated. Not some random #### who was born a month ago - what the **** has the stolen generation got to do with a new born aboriginal - **** ALL that's what!

I agree with compensation the ones who were affected - but GO **** YOURSELF if you think you're gunna get money because your dad/gdad/ggdad got screwed years ago...
Not needed. You blanked out all the swear words but not the racial name calling. It's people like you that cause these problems in the first place.

Quote from Kagetsu;337874:
Asking the current government (even the last one) to accept responsibility on behalf of the government for a idealogy that is decades old, would be akin to the current German government saying sorry and accepting responsibility for what the Nazi party did (lead to) back before WWII.

It's nice to say sorry and all, but restitution? They'll help where they can, but be realistic for **** sake... So much for moving 'forward'.
But they're still putting people in jail over they're role in WWII even though this all happened in times much earlier to the last of the stolen generations. I think someone else in the thread commented on how Germany is still suffering. Nuff said by them.

Quote from SperO;337880:
I work with a few of the stolen generation and they are only about 50 years old by the way. They are all in really high positions - well educated. Raking in the money. Do you know any stolen generation which is actually worse off from being stolen?

White people get there kids taken from them all time if they can't look after them. This needs to be enforced better within the black community.

That's a pretty big generalization! I hate generalizations, like playing computer games makes kids shoot up their school. My wife's grandmother had kids "stolen" while she was living in a community (proper community not these "opinionated" (wrong word, can't think of the word I want to use) ideas of communities that people seem to have where everyone is lying around drunk) She was that distraught that she ended up in Alice in the community there drinking her life away and had more kids taken away later on due to the way she turned out.

Quote from Milenko;338205:
What about all the white kids that were put into catholic boarding homes?
Quite a number of those were put there against will. Not to mention a lot of them have no records of events that took place, including family details.

My father was one of them.
Happened by their own race, doesn't mean it's right though, but not really apples for apples. Hasn't the church been sued on a number of occasions over this type of thing?

Quote from Bam Stroker;338338:
This from today's Crikey:

Editor of The National Indigenous Times Chris Graham writes:
I won't quote the whole lot again but I think it is the best comment so far. Adding the bit about Howard wasn't necessary but I see it was trying to make the point that he was around when it was happening.

Anyone that thinks that the generation it directly affected isn't around anymore, my wifes grandmother only died about 8 years ago and her stolen kids are still alive. At least the ones we know about.

I know I'm not making any knew points but I had to voice my opinion as there were a lot of go tell them to **** themselves comments. If we don't care about a simple apology (I know some people don't think it's simple) then why should they care about reconciliation? As usual people focus on the minority of the people causing the ripples (just like how the opinion is that all aboriginals in Darwin are "long grassers" I believe someone said earlier).

I now understand why my wife doesn't like ANZAC day. We all say sorry to the guys who risked their lives in all the wars and remember their suffering. There isn't much mention if any of the aboriginals that assisted in the war or the sufferings they occur since 1788. The mass killings etc. How many war statues and memorials do you see all over the place. How many aboriginal statues of remembrance or anything do you see around the place. I know some of you will now start quoting these but they will be very far and few between. (btw I would like to know of them as it would make my wife feel a little better)

Anyway time to play touch footy and get some of this frustration out.

Nice one LongTom... Here's something else I saw along that vein.

Reader's Comments: PM moves to heal the nation | News.com.au

Quote:

For all those that claim that they are not responsible for the actions of past generations, ask yourself what you will do next Anzac Day? You were not responsible for the actions that built a national identity, nor are you responsible for the shameful actions of previous policies, yet you are quick to take they day off, make pilgramages to Anzac Cove, attend Dawn Services and get drunk and broke playing Two-Up. You are quick to claim pride for the good actions in our history, but just as quick to seek absolution for the wrongs. The apology was one of the nation for a great wrong in basic Human Rights on a national and world stage, an apology of a Nation for its mistakes and cruelties, just as a Nation shows pride on Australia Day and Anzac Day for historical decisions and their manifestations on the shores of Botany Bay and on Anzac Cove. If you want to say "it wasn't me" or "it was a past generation" so we shouldn't say sorry, then you should keep this in mind on Anzac Day & Australia Day when you celebrate nation-hood and remember those that took actions in the past to form our identity in the world.