NT News suxorx?

Hey peeps. Just read the paper [can it be called that?] this morning, and Page 3 article on the gran with issues popped up. Heres the letter to the editor that i sent off in reply:

Letter to the editor: Re Page 3 of the Northern Territory News – Monday 22nd

I am replying to the article that dominated Page 3 of the Northern Territory News – Monday 22nd. For starters, labelling it “They’re killing the spirit of Darwin” is quite absurd and illogical.

If we can just take the “spirit of Darwin” as so far to stand as the following: Tourists cars being broken into, children drowning at the recently fenced Lake Leanyer, and their being a large amount of safety issues concerning Territory Day, then why do we not want these sorted out or in Molly Ward’s words – killed?

I would agree with Ms. Ward’s views on Stuart’s Spire to a point, as it would probably not express the now controversial “spirit of Darwin.” But I beg to differ with the pool fencing issues. Approximately 35 children have drowned in the past 10 years in urban areas in the Northern Territory. These statistics are appalling and I applaud the move for mandatory fencing to be a law. What would you rather, Ms. Ward? The so-called “spirit of Darwin” killed or your three grand children killed in their neighbours’ unfenced pool.

Ms. Ward seems to enjoy taking a stab at our political system with the ruse that “…people who make all these decisions should first find out what Darwin people think.” For a government that only came into power in the last year, after approximately 26 years of CLP hypocrisy, do you seriously think that the publics opinions would not be very high – or the highest on their list of priorities? I am not in any way defending the Labor government, neither am I a voter – but what I do know is that they are trying their best and people should not blame their whims on a government that is still in new territory [no pun intended].

For example, the Hon. Kon Vatskalis’ recent decision to fence Lake Leanyer was not unfounded. Two children had died there, and was it not the public’s continual outrage at this that led to it eventually being fenced? Without the public, their would be no government and I think the Labor government knows this well.

I have no issues with the parking meters as I do not drive. I advise, however, that rather than just having a qualm with something you see happening and becoming aggravated – produce a solution to the problem. After all, it’s the public’s opinion that matter after all, right?

I read the article & yes it is sad but part of the blame I think is still with the parents, it’s the parents responsibility to watch over there children. If you remember back there was a news article about a man who dived into a sandbar at Bondi & now suing the NSW council.
It’s a sad world when everyone wants to blame it on someone else rather than admitting they made the mistake.

First the lakes! what’s next should we see fencing on Darwin beach’s?

Parking meter's bah..!! more council revenue :x

Mate i am with you on most your points except for the pool fencing part.
This is something I feel pretty strongly about.

35 kids in 10 years have drowned in pools/spa's.

Compare this with the amount of kids who have been killed by cars, parental abuse or just plain illness and disease.

Now I own a Spa, i'm on the first floor of an apartment block.

To get to my spa a kid would to break in through 3 locked doors or scale 10 metres up to my balcony. Pretty far fetched for a 3 year old

Now I *still* am required to put fencing around it at a cost of 2-3K personally....frankly that's fucked.

It is NOT my resposibilty to watch your kids.

Perhaps parents with kids should have to put in a 6ft auto-locking fence and gate to stop their kids from getting out if they can't be bothered to watch their OWN kids while they are outside.

I realise that you CANNOT watch your kids every second.
But you CAN ensure that when they slip out of your sight they can't leave your fucking yard to be hit by cars, attacked by dogs, stolen by pedophiles
or fall in some poor bastards pool who then has the guilt misplaced onto him.

What if I had:

A big hole in my backyard?
Oleanders or other poisonous tree's in my yard?
Petrol/Oil or other chemicals in my yard?
Machinery such as whipper-snippers etc?

No laws about any of those and they kill more kids than pools.
Why don't I have to have a fence around those?

Knee Jerk reaction.....accept the responsibility of having kids.

Man Azrael, since when did you become so Literate?

a far better solution than isolation fencing for pools, would be isolation fencing for the yards of houses where children live. keep the fuckers inside, rather than in someone elses pool.

Quote from paladin:
a far better solution than isolation fencing for pools, would be isolation fencing for the yards of houses where children live. keep the fuckers inside, rather than in someone elses pool.

Valid, the parents should bear the cost of their own children. Either that or require parents to contribute to fund that is used to pay for the pool fencing.

Keeping the children in also protects them from any other dangers outside the yard, otherwise next they may campaign for mandatory attachment of pillows to the fronts of cars.

kill all kids.

Quote from paladin:
a far better solution than isolation fencing for pools, would be isolation fencing for the yards of houses where children live. keep the fuckers inside, rather than in someone elses pool.

this is a really good point cause its not the people who dont have kids responsibilty to pay lots for a fence. and if the parents put up a fence to keep kids in any kid who can excape that fencr should know not to jump in a pool that isnt his anyway.

actually coco drowning is the highest cause of death with children under five

Fencing around pools is not bullshit. It should be mandatory. Think about it, you have a kid and he got out by accident cause you turned your back for five seconds. HE gets into a pool he dies. Your sad. WHilst you feel at fault it all would have been prevented had the other person placed a fence.

The point is prevention is always the best cure, you are expected to watch your kids all the time. But I notice how everyone who says that the stupid parents should watch their kids havent got any children of their own.

You have a pool you should accept the responsiblities. Its like owning a car, you have one you have to be willing to accept what comes with it.

Quote from SperO:
You have a pool you should accept the responsiblities. Its like owning a car, you have one you have to be willing to accept what comes with it.

You have a child you should also accept the responsibilities.

Understandably, a parent can't watch their child every second. Thats where the idea of mandatory fencing for homes w/ children come in -> and it protects the kids from any other potential dangers outside of the yard.

I never said the parent shouldnt watch thier child 24/7... cause they most definately should

but accidents happen and a pool fence could just cut the risk down.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. They need to stop putting the burden on society.. we don't need saving from ourselves. This isn't just about pool fences this is about EVERYTHING. Nobody wants to take responsibility and everyone wants someone to blame.

If I get a pool I will get a fence I don't wanna get smashed one night go out the back for a spew fall over hit my head and drown. Hell I don't really care for kids but shit I don't wanna drown :)

Im a fan of logical fencing. but unfortunatly logical or common sense cant be used because politicians and irrational people are invovled. Having fencing on an apartment balcony pool is ludicrious. I think then fencng should be the door after all fencing and door/windows are the same kind of thing, a barrier right. Otherwise people should be forced to fence in their pools if they are below ground pools. A kid could easily slip and fall in.

parenst should be responsible for their children. the only problem is what I have said, children. you might have more than one, actually its quite common too have two young children: well one of them does something so the attentive parent goes to them to sort them out and whammo, other child falls in pool and drowns.

Mandatory pool fencing is a good idea. I'm just saying it should be expected that parents do take responsibility for their children and do take steps at their end regarding their childrens safety

As a father of 1 and another on the way, I agree that it is the responsibilitly of the parents to watch thier kids, pool fencing slows them down but if u get a determined child they will find a way over the fence i have seen 4 year olds scale pool fencing like monkeys.

I know it can be impossible to watch your kids 24/7 but at the end of the day it is your responsiblility as a parent to know where u kids are and if they a young ones u should know where they are..

Its not the childrens fault they are kids they do stupid things.

I can't imagine being too stingy to spend a few thousand dollars fencing your pool.

A warm NT day your brother and his family comes over. You are having a BBQ and a few beers and having a good time. Your 4 year old niece is quietly playing in the rumpus room, you go check on her and she is having fun. Just as you turn and walk away she figures out the lock on the patio door and quietly slips out the back. In full view of the living room (but the adults are all watching the TV looking in the other direction) she strolls up to the pool and reaches in to grab that colourful ball floating just near the edge. Leaning, leaning ... she falls in ... in a matter of 1 minute she is laying lifeless on the bottom of the pool. 5 minutes later her mum goes into the rumpus room to check on her only to find the door ajar ..... TOO LATE!

Just imagine how bad you would feel FOREVER .... and the effect it would have on you and your family. YOU WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO FORGIVE YOURSELF.

All for the sake of a few thousand dollars and in order to maintain your aesthetically pleasing outlook on the back yard.

This story happpens EVERY DAY somewhere in the world. Even worse imagine it was your OWN CHILD. There are no words for how bad you would feel. I'd bet if you could actually manage to continue to live in that house you would have pool fencing up within days of such a tragedy and would then swear by fencing.

/end rant

I'm all for pool fencing.. Our pool is fenced and I think most should. I'm just not into mandatory pool fencing.

Ok, in reply to Cael's [aka Ruin] comment - I recently attended Youth Parliament NT and the bill that the Sanderson High team presented on the Tuesday in parliament was that pool fencing should be mandatory. Shit, I'm only 15 - yet I have more knowledge about this topic now then some adults do. This is disturbing, and a classic example of this is the Page 3 article yesterday. I forwarded the letter to the editor to my friend, and MLA for Karama - Delia Lawrie. Here is her email back:

You go Tyce!!! A kick butt letter that I truly hope is published. Well done!

I've spoken to Molly Ward today and she was under the mistaken belief that the
Labor Government was pushing through ISOLATION fencing when indeed we'll be
legislating for SEPARATION or ISOLATION fencing in accordance with the
Australian Standards for pool fencing (that exist in every other state and
territory!).

I think the Stuart's Spire ($90,000) is a waste of ratepayer's money when we
can't get improved traffic calming devices in suburban streets, improved
footpaths or indeed any shade in parks from the Darwin City Council.

IN the recent Lord Mayor election the candidates that polled the most votes were
ANTI parking meters so that could definately be interpreted as the people of
Darwin voting AGAINST parking meters. This of course was ignored by the Council
and they're going ahead with an exercise that will costs thousands and no doubt
result in huge vandalism bills.

Crazy stuff from the Council.

At least we're kicking butt and doing the right thing down at Leanyer... we're
coming out with the plan and putting it to the people for their comment.

A common flaw among the adults that I know who are not learned on this topic is that they don't realize what isolation fencing is in comparison to separation fencing. Isolation is when you ISOLATE the pool from everywhere else. Seperation is when you can include, I stress that, existing walls/doors/whatever as long as it meets the Australian Standards.

This is why the Northern Territory is quite frankly fucked as far as these types of laws go. EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE-ELSE in this great country mandatory fencing is in place, and the most drowning occurred deaths IN Australia are HERE for fucks sake.

Fuckin wake up Australia, especially NT and get your shit together as far pool regulations go.

Oh yeah, and that can also apply for Cracker Night. I think, me being a QLD'r by nature, Territorian's enjoy 1) Having a whine 2) Not accepting that their laws are in shambles after 26 years of CLP and 3) Being lazy.

Sorry mate!!!

But get into the real world and see if your views hold.
You are obviously bright and idealistic, that's great and good to see but wait until you have to pay for everything yourself.

Rent is higher in Darwin than anywhere else
Food is higher in Darwin than anywhere else
Rates are higher (thanks Clair)
Car rego's are higher ( thanks Clair )
Beer is higher (thanks Johhny j/k)

Everything is more expensive in Darwin and quite frankly the pay rates for most jobs in the territory don't come close to matching them.

Then on TOP I HAVE to pay a few thousand dollars to stop SOMEONE elses kid from jumping in MY pool that I spent 10-20K on?

Even though my house may be inaccessbile or already has a 6 foot fence with autolocking gates?

If my pool was empty of water would I still need the fencing?
If i drain it each time?
Kid can't drown? He can crack his head open but he can't drown.

So MY kids who can swim and learnt pool saftey have to suffer and miss out cause Daddy's gotta spend a months worth of wages so some other lazy parent down the road doesn't watch their kid and hasn't taught them how to swim JUST in case they get into my property?

Can you guys see what is going on here?

Parents are forcing the responsibility of their kids onto other people.

30 years ago did this shit happen...NO...kids drowned but there was no litigiation...devastating sure but people accepted the fault of I let my kid wander out of my sight so it's MY fault, not the guy who owned the car that hit my kid, or the guy that owned the dog that bit my kid, it was ME because it was MY kid and I should have been looking after them.

If you have kids they ARE 100% YOUR responsibility, their safety is not the publics and not societys resposibility IT IS YOURS.

Use common sense guys, it's not just a financial thing, it's not a safety issue, it's common sense.....

Quote from ruin:
Man Azrael, since when did you become so Literate?

i would like to know the same thing?

Quote from CoCoBuckeTs:

So MY kids who can swim and learnt pool saftey have to suffer and miss out cause Daddy's gotta spend a months worth of wages so some other lazy parent down the road doesn't watch their kid and hasn't taught them how to swim JUST in case they get into my property?

very good point i could swim before i could walk every child needs to learn how to swim the sooner the better.

Quote from CoCoBuckeTs:

If you have kids they ARE 100% YOUR responsibility, their safety is not the publics and not societys resposibility IT IS YOURS.

EXACTLY

Simple Solution to all this.

Fill the pool when you want to use it & when your finished drain it out.
Hmmm there a problem to this, Now I have a big empty whole which kids could fall in a injure them self. OK I fill the whole with dirt, two days later.

Now every time I want to use the pool I have to book in advance two to three days so I have time to dig it out & fill it up again. Brownish water isn't so bad & no need for chlorine might save money, hmm dont know about the water bill thou..... :lol:

I've been due to have my own personal legal rant so sit back and enjoy the long post.

In my opinion parents who let their children drown in another person's backyard should be trialed for Negligence which in the NT constitutes of:
Having failed a duty of care for your legal neighbour (not literally neighbour but other people and yes your family are other people), where it was forseeable to a reasonable person( sane and able brained person).

Shouldn't it be that the parents have the duty of care to their children, know what their children are doing and where they are. Shouldn't the parents forsee that "something" might happen to their children if they're not being legally supervised.

If I had a nice happy $20,000 pool installed for me in my new neighbourhood I've never seen a child in the neighbourhood playing or remotely anything resembling a child unable to swim for several months, only to come home one day to find a child floating in my pool. I don't think that was very forseeable to me. To the parents of that child YES! Why? If they weren't watching their child it would be forseeable that something would happen. The child and the flame theory. Don't watch the child playing with flame for the first time of course they're going to get burnt. FORSEEABLE.

After Taking studies in the Legal Misceallaneous normarada of Australia our legal systemreally is a 'patch-work' law system. The Judicial system (judges) is making all the ammendments they CAN make to exisiting outdated laws to the 1960's and federation. Since someone does something people don't like, people get unhappy, Government gets scared of losing their highhorse and they make a patchwork law(and regulations). The other 50,000 people pay for the 1 person's damage.

No. Laws shouldn't be about pool fencing and having short-term fixes with pool-fencing and money spent on such things. How about laws enforcing younger children learning to swim. (EDIT)Teaching a poor man to fish theory. Why just have fencing which only holds the problem back for a while, where if all younger children were taught to swim I wouldn't see many drowning, and probably many more olympic swimmers.

For years I enjoyed my Cracker night for years on end, and never had a single incident. That was because I was responsible and supervised. Cracker night should stay the same but as it seems the world changes so laws inherently should change also. I would definitely like to see more control on where fireworks should be let off.

Anyway there's my rant over law. Please post your comments, and I'll be glad to support anyone shooting down our current law-making system.

I see typos everywhere!

Amen Jay

Very Ture Jay, I'm with you.

Yes oh Yes.. Jay and CoCo.. both of you. Like I said we don't need saving from ourselves and that is what laws like this do. Instead people need to stand up and take responsibility and stop putting the burden on society because it is too hard or they don't feel like it... because society is suffering.

Oh yeah and I'm definitely NOT for mandatory fencing. I am really for it's intentions being good for the community and for everyone. However they are completly going about it the wrong way, mandatory fencing would be the wrong method, however benefits for having fencing would encourage people to add that extra protection.

Quote:
I am really for it's intentions being good for the community and for everyone.

Then why do you oppose mandatory fencing? If it is EVERYWHERE in Australia, bar the NT and the most drownings are HERE where people are not taking RESPONSIBILITY and fencing their pools then why should it not be?

Quote:
If I had a nice happy $20,000 pool installed for me in my new neighbourhood
Dude, get your figures right. It does NOT cost 20 grand for a fucking fence. And you get a 10% rebate on whatever you spend. Do you see people in QLD, NSW, Vic, etc getting money off the government for fencing? No, you don't. And they aren't bitching because they KNOW that it saves lives. Look at the fuckin stats. Jesus people, it's like you're putting a price on a child's life because you aren't willing to pay money for something that AID's the parent's responsibility of their kids. Sure, the parents cannot always and this is why we as Territorians need to decrease the risk of drownings, even if it does mean forking out X amount of dollars for the fence.

At this point I restate the fact the Isolation does in fact differ from Separation and this seems to be something that youse are overlooking.

Quote:
Then why do you oppose mandatory fencing? If it is EVERYWHERE in Australia, bar the NT and the most drownings are HERE where people are not taking RESPONSIBILITY and fencing their pools then why should it not be?

yes but have a think about it the ratio of pools per houses is much greater in Darwin than anywhere in australia due to our extream heat. there is proberly 3 times the anount of pools here than anywhere else in australia (thats just a guess) so there is more opptunity for kids to drown if they arnt looked after.

yes we are getting a pool fence cause my mom would like to make it safe for anyone who come over with children and just because she would like it theere

that drowning of that little girl was in my street about 3 house or 20-30 meters away an i am telling u now that kid has been found on kylamnos drive and even at the car park at the shops ( 70-90 meters away from its home) because they have not watched it. the papers made u all believe that it was the unfenced pools owner that was at fault but it was neglect on the childs parents in a BIG way.

but yes pool fencing should be encouraged

Because they are going about preventing drownings in the wrong manner. They focusing on the problem, not on the solution. Focusing on the problem will get you in a tangle, focus on the solution and you can get the problem.

Just because something is EVERYWHERE, it doesn't mean that it should be in the Northern Territory as well. The reason why each state and Territory has it's own parliament, each city has it's council, and a Federal Parliament for all of Australia is so that laws can be made suited to the area. EVERYWHERE else in Australia you are probably thinking of QLD, ViC, NSW have a very different pool to population ratio. The enforcing of, and changing of laws will be a huge cost to the NT Government, along to the people who have already for years enjoyed a unfenced pool with no error.

(EDIT)Also of which I have spent 18 years living at my home in Darwin surrounded on every side by a house that has a pool. For 18 years I have watched families move in and out and never had an incident. One possibility why? The families living around me all took their children to swimming lessons as soon as their children were able.

In my opinion this is what they have done wrong in nearly all laws around Australia. If they are going to change the regulations and laws and the whole shizbang for the Northern Territory. Do it right. People should not be oblidged to care for other people's children. Read what I posted it explains all my reasoning well.

Quote:
Dude, get your figures right. It does NOT cost 20 grand for a fucking fence. And you get a 10% rebate on whatever you spend
And read it again to see what I said about the pool. I said pool.

The cost of enforcing mandatory fencing will be an unnecessary cost. Isolation or separation. Instill a compulsory program that would help teach children to swim by x age and that will help prevent children from drowning not just from one body of water, but any body of water.

I have been debating for a long time that the onus of people's children is increasingly being pressured onto the other people of the community. The teachers, neighbours, friends, and strangers alike. I would like to see some actual responsibilities being further placed on the parents of Children, Legislations actually being passed to further enforce this; Case-law being made on Negligence to change present precedents.

There is a 1946 case of Searle vs. Wallbank where an animal's owner is legally responsible for the animal regardless if it escaped. Also updated by a further car accident with a sheep(might have been a cow) in a case for Trigwell's where a family car had an accident and the escaped animal's owner was sanctioned for letting it be hit by the car and cause the accident. I can't see why the parents of children shouldn't be more responsible and not other people.

If I have a child trespassing on my property, to get into my pool to drown, why am I the one who should be prosecuted for not having a fence there. I am not against protection of children from drowning, but mandatory fencing is definitely not the way to go.

It pays to have a bit of a listen and absorb other people's ideas.

Cheers, :)

EDIT: Typos and grammar again.

Short and sweet,
Most unnatural deaths occur from motor-vehicles. According to our supporters of mandatory pool fencing, perhaps we should ban cars, make them illegal or as others have mentioned line them with external pillows. Better still lets reduce the speed limit to 10km\h. Perhaps we could even line our roads with fences to stop pedestrian deaths also. All this because government 'knows' whats best. While were at it i'm sure a few people die just walking up steps, maybe we should ban them too. Oh some people die on the sports field playing thier favourite sport, but hey lets ban them from doing that too, because 'we' know whats best for them. Basically you can see where this is heading.

shorter and sweeter:

I am not responsible for for someone elses negligence.

Azreal, be fair.

We have looked at your point of view and we agree that most if not all pools should be fenced for safety.

However you have not bothered to read or discuss our points about why MANDATORY fencing is a bad idea.

Pools easily cost 20K and fences cost well over 1k.

If I build a fence myself and erect it, I still have to pay for some bastard to come over check it out and 'approve' it which costs me hundreds of $$. Did you know that? There are a myriad of small things that have to be taken into account when MANDATORY anything is proposed.

At first you sounded like an intelligent young man , now after your last post you just sound like another 15 year old sprouting off about stuff he has no idea about.

As to which you are, your next post will probably determine that.

Quote:
If I build a fence myself and erect it, I still have to pay for some bastard to come over check it out and 'approve' it which costs me hundreds of $$. Did you know that? There are a myriad of small things that have to be taken into account when MANDATORY anything is proposed.

also did u know there is only 2 poeple in Darwin that do this an bloke and a chick only 2 so to register u'r pool and fence and all that u will be on the waiting list for a while before u can fill it up if this mandantory fencing thing comes into place

You know what kind of people piss me off,

the ones that say who cares cause it'l never happen to me.

How many times has the front page of the paper been covered with somebody who just lost their first child to drowning. Then all of a sudden they are all FOR pool fencing. But before that they always said "it wont happen to me"

You people are all the same, to live in this world together we need to work together. Pulling your bullshit excuses as in "i dont have kids" or "my kids can swim". Who gives a shit. It's a four year old kid or whatever. It can't look after itself. Parents try thier hardest to be good parents. But not everybody is perfect.

If more people started helping other people and not expecting them to take it all on themselves. The world would be a better place.

Quote from SperO:
The world would be a better place.
This will Never happen.

Not sure if this is right but didn't that kid who drowned climb through a hole in the fence into the neighbours yard?

Pool fencing should be encouraged. Alot of people already have it. Perhaps some form of scheme to reward it would encourage the last few to do so as well.

However if the parents were to fence their own yard, give their child swimming lessons (given that it is their child it should be their responsibility) and teach them pool safety they child would be so much safer.

I understand where you're coming from Sper0, personally I think if mandatory pool fencing was to be imposed, the above should also be made mandatory.

Because otherwise the parents are simply putting the responsibility on someone elses shoulders.

SperO comments.

It's a four year old kid or whatever. It can't look after itself. Parents try thier hardest to be good parents. But not everybody is perfect.

True SperO I four year old kid can not look after him self it not his fault.
But hell some parents can't even look after them self & they are having kids, that piss me off.
Maybe there should be a test or a law before couples can pop one out, then & maybe it could be a better world.
If parents do run into difficulties in looking after the children then they should get counseling or help. I bet there are lots of people & organizations which could help them before it's to late for them & the toddler.

very interesting post, however some people are swayed by their political Parties (read: Parents Political Parties) Views. soooo i will now take a very err...huge amount of time trying to sum up my personal opinion without politics as i do not care for it.

IMHO, Mandatory pool fencing is completely wrong. sorry to all who may oppose this but this is how i feel and i will explain later why this is so. (although many have stated my own personal feelings in their posts ie CoCo and Pal.)

Let's look at a situation common to darwin that will serve as just one example why Mandatory fencing is beyond stupid:

i am a home owner, middle aged with kids that are about to go to uni. i have a spa sitting on the second (ie upper) floor of an elevated house. the house is completely fenced off by nine foot high fencing.

why oh why, should i have to pay my hard earned money to fence a spa sitting on my Verandah. think about it.

Spero & Azrael, i can see where you are both coming from and i do understand your points of view. however, there are many situations that do not call for isolation fencing around pools/spas.

i also believe parents should be held responsible and accountable for their childrens actions on many different occassions. ie kids that steal/shoplift. break into houses, do drugs etc. these are just other more serious examples. Parents have that responsibility. accidents do happen, yes. but it is their duty of care that they should take the necessary precautions in order for their children to remain safe.

why don't the parents of these children that can seemingly escape so easily fence their own homes? ensure deadlocks on their doors?

i can guarantee everybody here that when i was out of sight of my parents at such a vulnerable age, that they knew where i was and that i was with somebody that they trusted would keep me safe.

i can also guarantee that when i decide to have children i will do just that.

Kids are rarely stopped by mere fencing. from personal experience. i watched with interest as my cousin, age 4, brought a chair over to an isolation fence in Queensland and within five minutes had worked out how to get through.

when he had decided to hop off the chair and sneak his way through the gate he was pinched up by his father. i have seen my little brother do this and friends with siblings/children of their own.

there aren't many simple gates and fences that can prevent a child from getting through when they are determined enough.

On CoCo's point: what about my putting barbs on the top of my fence to stop little bastards breaking into my yard...this injures children if they are so daring to try.

i have heavy machinery that can be simply operated with the flick of a switch or the push of a button that is lying underneath my house. what about stairs?

should we start isolating our roads with fences?

to conclude this very LONG rant (sorry people...if you read this you are indeed quite insane):

yes i do believe that there are cases where fencing is required. yes there are drownings. parents should be held responsible in the majority of cases. mandatory fencing is wrong.

the end.

if you want to continue this then feel free to PM me or email me with your thoughts. i will respond.

EDIT: Definite Nod Nod to aravi's points. as i have said i do not feel mandatory fencing is right but giving rebates and helpful schemes to encourage it is a good idea.

You have some really good points Seqo_ae.

Here’s an idea for Spa Owners.

Maybe you don't need have to fence your spar I have heard people using a lockable spa cover made from fiberglass. You can close it & pad lock it so it’s complete safe, not even kids can get in. That if the know how to use a bolt cuter. I don’t know about pools thou maybe they make it in three sections that interlock.?

Look at it this way, it's going to cost less than putting up a fence that’s for sure. At the same time keeping the spa clean no more leaves & crap falling into it. Then if some one brakes into your yard leaves the gate open & for some unknown reason a four year toddler wonders into your yard he’s not going to fall into the spa.

I have two kiddies under 7 and I own a house with a pool with a fence around it.

If you are too silly not to have a fence around your pool and your kids drown then it is your fault. Children in pools should be supervised at all times.

I don't let my kids in the pool unless I am there or my wife is.

Darwin spirit or not, pool fences prevent children from accessing pools. They my or my not drown but it lessens the likleyhood of it by a bit.

<my 2 cents worth>

Quote:
Not sure if this is right but didn't that kid who drowned climb through a hole in the fence into the neighbours yard? arrrrrhhh again missled by papers

the childs house had a hold in there froun gate and it went through that than traveled 5 or soo meter to the neighbours frount gate which was not closed than the baby went liek under the elevated house doging pool tabes and concrete ledges and into the pool 13 meters from the front gates. all with out a trace of it even missing.

now i would say this whole process of excape from the family home to the pool next door properly 5 min if this child went form point a to b straight away if it was just stroling around it could of been longer but the point is it wasnt even notiecd it had gone for a fair while. than when realised the hut for it took place searching the yard and so forth till it wsa found in pool.

but my point is the hold was in the parents fence so there problem and obivously no one was looking after the child.

o and that lady next door her gate should of been closed because thats the only fence she has to stop poeple evterign the house and there is a pool in there.

Approximately 35 children have drowned in the past 10 years in urban areas in the Northern Territory.

and yet still nothing in the papers about SMOKING kills more people a year in NT...

maybe the govenment should stop the big killing things first...

did you know 2-3 people die of snake bites a year, and there on the front of the paper youll get "SNAKE ATTACKS", and smoking kills more people but who cares...
The snake didnt attack, most likely the person stood on its back and it bite the person... realy who likes someone bigger than you crushing your back...

One thing I can confirm now, anything that's on the front page of the NT News should be on the 3rd page. Anything on the 1st and 2nd pages should be blank pages.

ok, forgive me if this has been pointed out before, because I got sick of the rants long before the end of the thread.

Did you know that if some wanker breaks into your property and stabs himself in the foot on a broken glass you couldn't be bothered picking up, he can sue you dor damages? who in here doesn't agree that that is totally f

ok, now that we have gotten that out of the way, Isolation fencing is a great idea, but making it mandatory is impractical. Its like telling someone they have to wear a uniform for their job, and then asking for the cash to pay for said uniform

If I buy a block of land, and then build a house on it, why does *anyone* have the right to tell me what I can do on my own land?

Everyone wants to lay blame somewhere else, everyone wants to point the finger at someone and thats just wrong. If little Johnny wants in the pool, he will get in, believe me, I know, when I was young, I was a professional at breaking into pool fences.

Society's biggest problem is *NOT* that noone helps each other, thats complete crap, plain and simple. Society's biggest problem is that people want to lay blame, not take responsibility for their own fuckups.

Maybe if everyone takes responsibility for themselves and their families, we wouldn't be having this little argument hmmm?

Edit: lol Seqo - I just read your post dude, and thats pretty much what I was trying to say - well said :)

psy_ave,

(and yet still nothing in the papers about SMOKING kills more people a year in NT...
maybe the govenment should stop the big killing things first...)

Nah psy_ave the gov wont remove smoking it makes them to much money. Now if only they could tax children drowning the gov wouldn't enforce pool fencing.
This is just another political stunt for the gov to gain people popularity. Remember good old Johnny fixing the gun laws it's when something bad happens every gov does the knee jerk approach. Did it fix the problem? no... now we have a bigger black market of guns & an increase of gun related crimes.

This post was only concentrating on the issue of pool fencing, and how it is going to be mandatory - whether you like it or not. In response to the comment of Quote:
At first you sounded like an intelligent young man , now after your last post you just sound like another 15 year old sprouting off about stuff he has no idea about. , I redirect you to the post where I stated that yes, I do know what I'm talking about and I only have this opinion on fencing because of the amount of information I've been exposed to and taken in. I am allowed to make my judgements on this, and they are not deprived of basis. It might sound a little tired by now, but I will just restate the point that everywhere in Australia it is mandatory to fence your pool, both isolation or seperation and we as Territorians are not following the crowd - just making a choice between whether we want to [I mean we as everyone ie Mandatory] decrease the chance of deaths among infants. I'm not saying that fences will always work, but you cannot dispute the fact that they do help. If you don't make it mandatory, bull shit more then 10% of the population of NT will fence their pools to Australian Standards.

Btw, check out letter to the editor - Wednesday 24th.

Quote from Azreal:
but I will just restate the point that everywhere in Australia it is mandatory to fence your pool, both isolation or seperation and we as Territorians are not following the crowd

so? just because someone/everyone else does something a specific way doesn't mean you should automatically fall in line and follow suit. sorry, but i really hate that sort of argument.

Quote from Azreal:
bull shit more then 10% of the population of NT will fence their pools to Australian Standards.
i would say that at least 25% and that is at min do and will continue to fence their pools at australian standards.

Azreal do u even know the Australian standards?
i doubt u do of the top of ya head than thats where u are geting this information from in ya head not from the media (media is very missleading but some is true)

how can u say that 10% of peeps wont have australian standara pool fencing if its not mandatory have a look at the pools around the suberbs MOST are fenced to keep wandering people from gooing in from the street and a large amount are australian standard.

this is the asutralian standard pool fencing brocure

http://www.pcc.nt.gov.au/services/Brochures/Pool%20Fencing.pdf

i agree monkey, it is a great idea to have pool fencing and quite frankly i think many people should have it. however, as i have said, and meph has said and many other people beforehand:

it is utterly stupid to make people, 1. pay it out of their own pockets. 2. make it mandatory as it thus affects people who A. have spa on verandah etc. B. live in block of Flats with pool/spa.

Aravi has stated in about two or three posts already that subsidies on pool fencing should be in place...great idea imo. and one that the government is failing to see.

notice that the government never seems to see these things...gawd and don't get me started on the City Council and the Stuarts Spire POS. (i still can't believe that monstrosity made it past the appeal board...Bleh~)

anyways, yes i agree with Pal and one of the worst basis' for arguments is that "Everyone else does, why shouldn't i".

also, the inspectors for the pool fencing laws in New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria (the three states i am exposed to the most) take into account your perimiter fencing. according to the new laws that the NT government wants to put in, it will be mandatory to have isolation fencing for the pool no matter how big, tall, dangerous your perimeter fence is.

here's another argument:

what if i had a dog? then people would complain that the dog injured the baby...there would be a huge uproar about dog owners and how they 'maul' children constantly.

then there is the barb wire on the top of my fence, the 'sharp' edges of my chain mesh fence ripped a kids arm open because they got it snagged...etc etc..

there are many examples that i could give but i won't bother, if you haven't gotten my point then you either will not understand where i am coming from or you will need more examples, of which i will not give here. so, once again please feel free to discuss it directly to me..i would be happy to respond.

people are always looking for others to blame for their incompetence/stupidity. human nature i spose.

btw Meph: in the northern territory if someone broke into your house and that happened it wouldn't stand up in court. (direct quote from my dad, OIC - Officer In Charge of the Police College) but it is a good example and something that does happen in southern states and overseas...ie U.S.A.

gawd another long post..hehe haven't had many posts like this lately ;):P

Nice post Az, your obviously the former.

The problem is Az is that this is probably the first 'big' issue you have been so involved with.

Many of the older residents of the board have seen this shit pulled by the govt time and time again and frankly you just stop caring after a while.
Next year it will be mandatory something else or they will try to stick their noses in our business again..

I tend to get rather upset that I pay 50% of MY pay in tax to help pay for shit like this.

Do you actually understand that az?

The govt takes 50% of my money each week so shit like this can be 'debated' and then 'enforced'.
I work 40+hours a week and HALF of my time the money is going to someone else, not roads, not medicine...freaking welfare.....

FUCK THAT......

I saw your letter in the paper, nice Tyce.

But did you see what was on page 2 about the wages?

You sound blinkered by knowledge mate....too much is not always a good thing.

I reckon it mandatory for children of a young age learn to swim is a great idea, would stop the problem without much money spent or maybe any at all (teach them yourselves?).

Fuck all this,
If some do-gooders and the government want to enforce pool fencing, then god dammit the funds for this should come from the government coffers (our money anyway)100%. Those people who 'want' to fence their own pool can do so at their own cost. It is fundamentally wrong to legislate that requires the public to dip into their own purses again after paying their tax. After all that is what we are paying taxes for, apart from politicians wages and superannuation(which they allocate themselves a payrise every other week, not to mention all the super perks). Tax is a fundamentally wrong concept, but in todays society it has been made essential and society would fall apart without it.

Rainwulf has the best solution

Quote from rainwulf:
kill all kids.

LOL

sorry rainwulf i dont thing this would work somehow :?

Hahaha our society is pretty fucked already.

Do you know it says in our version of the 'constitution' (can't remember the name, declaration of federation??) that it is illegal to put a tax on another tax.

Now tell me what the GST is...:)

interesting little side note - wasn't the Labor party against "mandatory" sentencing? and now they're pro "mandatory" fencing?

don't bother flaming me unless you can see the funny side of the above :P

Quote from CoCoBuckeTs:
Hahaha our society is pretty fucked already.

Do you know it says in our version of the 'constitution' (can't remember the name, declaration of federation??) that it is illegal to put a tax on another tax.

Now tell me what the GST is...:)

The first comment I can agree to many things. Since when does a computer illiterate person get to Govern such thing sin Australia.

The Australian Constitution. (The Book of which rules which rules how we are Governed)

GST - I could post my 50 page report but that'd be no fun.

----
Az as I posted above in one of my monster posts I mentioned something about the different tiers of Government, and the locality of Government powers. This is so that no single legislation or regulation can be made which would be made that it would benefit one area, where as everywhere else suffers from it.

Also I'd love to back up the reason, why should I jump off a cliff just because the other 50 monkies did. It certainly ain't because there is a bear behind us.

---------
Oh yeah Meph I think the law over someone breaking into your house and getting injured has been changed via caselaw, I can't cite the exact case and year but I remember hearing it. Then I think the Government got pissy at the Judicial system and made their own overiding law.

Quote:
You sound blinkered by knowledge mate....too much is not always a good thing.

Thanks mate. I spose that could be true. I am, of course only a young'n and I do really appreciate the input that all the rest of youse have put into this post. My perspective has widened, and I will always remain an open minded person about this stuff. The reply before about the tax, no - I do/did not realize that. This could be (or is) as I am not currently a tax payer, and up until this point I did not think age mattered. Obviously, it does - as I wouldn't have known shit like that unless I payed tax or someone told me. Although my views haven't changed overall, I think I can now understand better why some people are opposed to mandatory fentencing.

Thanks peoples, and I dont care if you keep posting - I probably won't though. Some chick stuff came up at school - will keep me very preoccupied for a while :D

Edit: SOz about the sentencing, was sposed to be fencing ;)

Quote from Azreal:
I think I can now understand better why some people are opposed to mandatory sentencing.

Let's not even get started on that debate. thought this was about mandatory fencing ;)

I can't help but be impressed by your last reply, Azreal. It's great that you are passionate about something, and that you actually follow up on your convictions. It's also good to hear that you have listened to other people's points of view, and realised that they are not trying (necessarily) to point out who's right and who's wrong, but simply their reasons for believing the things they do.

I'm glad to see that you're not letting this change your mind (for the records, I'm not against pool-fencing, but mandatory pool fencing) - however, you are showing your maturity when you admit that this has helped you to understand why people who believe contrary to you think the way they do.

Well done! :D

Hahahaha agreed, that's for another day and 10 pages of posting.

Az, don't be hard on yourself bud, we were all 15 at one stage..:)
Keep it up mate, as xaine said.

You've impressed the hell outta me even tho we disagreed.

Rock on Coco, see ya round some time.

Btw, coco and xaine - come play cs on server 2 :D see if my skills in game can rival the politics ones :)

At work bud atm..:)

Gimme 2 hours and i'll home fraggin with a smile...

hehe...same here (although there is no doubt I'll get owned - but I still enjoy playing).

No worries mates :D