Girls in CS .. whos up for a read??

Girls in CS.

On occasion I get to play counter strike, and I'd say I'm not too shabby in general. While I was pretty lousy when I first started a while back, I now in general get between 2 to 4 kills for every time I die, and this is considered a fairly good performance. Well, I was kind of in the analysis mode while playing this one night, and I noticed something about the whole community chat. People who did poorly often swore, whined about losing, called others cheaters, and in general didn't seem very happy about playing. In contrast, those with high scores usually were congratulating people for their performance (even those that had killed them personally), seemed more encouraging, and more positive about the game in general.

It so happens this was the same term I was taking both sociology and psychology in college. With that in mind, I was really interested with this whole concept of the social interactions within the "virtual" environment that some games can provide, so I decided to do a social experiment. Granted, I would never be able to use my findings in a study, as some things aren't quantifiable, but I hoped to at least have a new perspective as a result.

Like most social experiments, this was based a bit on deception. While I normally don't like being deceptive, I considered it very carefully. I decided the virtual environment is one where you are allowed to pretend you are anyone you want to be, and where you have to take what everyone says with a grain of salt, so to speak. With this in mind, I was soon to change a small factor about how people saw me.

Just a little more background before I go any further. I knew I wanted to look into the sociology within the gaming environment, but I hadn't decided particularly what I wanted to examine.

So there I was playing with a friend, after he had called me up wanting to play for a while, and then have me train him some. During the course of the afternoon, a girl came on the server we were playing on (from the clan
[*Girlz*]). After a few rounds she killed me, and I laughed to my friend, "I got killed by a girl!" But then it started going through my head... I wonder how other people react to a girl playing in a sport that's very much dominated by males?

I had previously had a conversation with one of my female friends about guys/girls, and one of the things she mentioned was her opinion of guys was that guys felt they had to be "the best" to be worth anything. I thought
about it, and came to the conclusion that it was kind of true. Not that we guys feel we have to be the very, very best at everything we do, but we want to believe that we're the best at a few things, and rather good at the rest.
Well, from that perspective, most guys are pretty sexist, I'll admit. Even I have the tendency to think I can beat a girl at most things, regardless of whether it involves physical strength or not (though those are definitely included). It's a matter of ego, translating physical prowess to mean superior at everything, and yeah, that's probably a wrong perspective, but it's true that inside my head I often think like that, without even meaning to.

Back to the story though. I had seen how there was a lot of friendship and -mostly- healthy competition when I was playing under my usual name of Nighthawk, so I decided to change something. I went on the same server, with mostly the same people, just a little bit later... as Julie.

Now, instead of having a name that implies the silent watchful hunter, now I've got a name that just yells out "hey, I'm a girl, and probably can't play worth crap!" :) The reactions the various times I did this certainly were nothing at all like I could have expected.

The first time, entering into the middle of the game and rising, my teammates laughed at the other team constantly and made comments such as "hahaha, the GIRL on our team killed you all!" That was by far the most
positive thing ever said. Pretty soon, as I was making my way to the top ranks, two of them started hitting on me. Let me just say now, sick. It's not something comfortable to endure as a guy to have other guys be hitting on you, believe me, but in retrospect, thinking about it, the real girls out there probably don't like it a whole ton better. Still... it was nasty.

So here I am, trying to concentrate on the game, while guys started saying things like "so, Julie... you play in here often? *wink* *wink* ". Oh how I longed to mention I was a guy just then, but I didn't, and played my part.
Ugh. It was funny, though, when another guy on my team just responded "that's got to be the worst attempt at a pickup line I've ever heard!" and a bunch of them laughed, as did I. Anyway, I ended that game with the top
score, and it was fairly friendly the whole time. The major exception being the occasional sexual references and such they were making about me and what they'd like to do and such... At this point my level of respect for guys
was starting to go fairly low, but that was not the end, oh no, not at all.

The next time, I took them all to school from the beginning, on an all-dust server running at 1 hour rotations. The whole time, people were making rude comments like "you just won because all us terrorists got stuck behind
Julie's fat ass" and such. Pretty soon I had guys directly challenging me, saying "I'm going to kill you next round bitch, you're mine!" and such. (Humorously enough, I killed that guy within 20 seconds of him saying that,
but that's beside the point).

Unfortunately, even the compliments I got were really rude, like "you're pretty good for a bitch" and such. But mostly people were saying, as one young man so eloquently put it, "you fat bitch I bet you do nothing but play this game all day long" along with all manner of insults. I, the "girl" in this case, wasted a bunch of boys (and yes, I wasted them pretty badly, with a very large gap between my score and the rest). It seems the bulk majority of them simply couldn't take it, their egos were too fragile.

I didn't really say much, except laughing a few times, for the bulk majority of this time, occasionally chuckling when I killed the guys who insulted me the most, but in general just telling my team good job, whoever shot me
"nice shot", and the likes. Well, to his credit (and a small bit of redemption for our gender), one guy defended me a bit, while most just called me rude names. He kind of apologized for their actions, and said he thought I was really good, so I said "hey, thanks, don't worry about it, most boys can't handle being beaten by a girl. I'm used to it." He laughed, and the rest of them cussed at me some more and made a lot of sexual comments I really don't need to elaborate on. I was amazed, during the entire game, the sole focus was on what sexual things they did with "Julie" the previous night, and with "Julie"s family members. Pretty negative overall.

Coming to the conclusion that most American guys were a rather lewd and immature group, I decided to play with some Europeans. Screw the grades, I stayed up until 4am and then started a European CS fest. The difference
could almost be tasted. Granted, I don't know what the Germans were saying (probably "geben sie mein hosen" and such), but the English speakers were -much- more polite than anything I had previously experienced. I had very, very few sexual comments made, and in general they just regarded me as a
talented player. Basically, it was back to on par with how the Americans treated me while playing as Nighthawk -- the generic, assumed-to-be-male name. With a quick hurah for Europeans, odd as they may seem at times, it's
off to bash some Americans, and see what we can learn from it in the process.

I personally learned a lot from doing this experiment. For one, I'd be willing to bet being a woman in the military is not entirely dissimilar from this. In some situations, it probably sucks to be a girl sometimes... I guess I didn't realize what outright jerks guys were willing to be, really. I'd expect that they might be a bit pissed in private, but the expressions of negative attitudes I got... it was a lot more intense than I ever expected.

I understand why the worst rude guy of them all was a bit frustrated, I ended up being 72-28, while he was 21-44, but that's no excuse for that kind of treatment and making a game personal. Not my best performance by any means (like when I was getting those 4:1 ratios I
mentioned earlier), though for reference the next guy below me had 20 less kills and 15 more deaths, but you get the idea.

As far as discrimination, I think what I experienced is more extreme than usual, simply because of the anonymity of the environment. With no real consequences existing for being socially unacceptable, a more blatant
expression of dormant feelings was more likely. This was the first time I'd really experienced just a small piece of what being a girl can be like, firsthand. Part of me wanted to tell them who I really was, thinking I would have really got some humorous reactions from them. But in reality, chances are they'd just say they were just joking around, or something like that, because as we all know, the classic response is trying to deny your actions when you're caught.

Playing CS while pretending to be a girl gave me a lot to think about. While the reactions to my presence I got were mostly negative, I still enjoyed the experiment. While I was playing, I could see myself totally taking on the identity of a girl, and having that feeling "oh yeah? I'll show them!" I suppose I "showed them" alright, but it wasn't really true. I'm not a girl. So whether or not I'd like to make those jerks get a little humility, I can't really myself prove that girls can be just as good if not better.

Much as all of us take on the role of the CT or the Terrorist as we play, so it is amazingly easy to take on the role of the other gender and act it out for a time. It is kind of weird how we can get caught up in our own mental
creations at times. Overall, though, I'm glad I did the experiment, informal as it was, just so I got a better perspective into a different world.

omg - read first 2 paragraphs then my eyes got saw 8)

Thats the first post i fully read, thanks unseen!
Yeh ive played with a few girls in CS, it is unusal for a girl to be playing, you dont find many :D
But ive seen some pretty good girls... [gX]Nat been the best.

Damn unseen, u got too much time on your hands. I act as a girl sometimes. Stand in front of the mirror, squeezing my clevage together while standing in my knee high boots (FMB's as they say) and a little pink dress on. hmm maybe i shouldnt be telling u all this....

You got to admit it too now, most guys are absolute immature assholes.

In my first clan in online gaming ever, one of the co-leaders was a girl. She was treated equal on the most by other players and the clan itself while playing TFC. However when taken over to Counter-Strike, let's say anything that happened wouldn't have been mentioned on Television after 9pm.

Perhaps, in my opinion why have a name which advertises your a girl.
When im playing on random servers I just use SperO and nobody knows better, I dont get treated any worse. You get treated differently as a female whether its sympathy with all the guys acting all chivalrous or you get the dudes who just want to cause trouble. I dont tell anyone im a chick cause I see no point. I want to play.

On GU however discovering I was female was inevitable mostly cause half of them met me. All i found on GU was pure politeness. I was treated as another gamer. Because thats all I am.

Genderlisation is a bitch. But what can you do. Frankly I get just as pissed off when im getting defended then when im getting insulted. Im just as capable as any male out there of defending myself online.
-Which id like to make a point here, GU server is different as everyone defends everyone... its a happy little community.

Pretty interesting study Unseen. I had a mate who pulled a similar stunt before on Red Alert (okay it was a long time ago) he even had one of the other guys we knew personally trying to hit upon him. The language wasnt anywhere near as bad but some of the comments were very derogatory and more often than not guys would band up to attcak this poor defenceless female. More often and not he did well in the games though. CS would have been a more interesting study but we never did it on Quake 2 (the shoot em up of the era)

If you girls dont like it then leave, its a mans game anyway.
Just joking seriously, lol bet a few of u got upset before u read this line
nah its a pleasure playing and killing such lovely ladies. Where else can i kill u and get away with it. Besides maybe in iraq or iran.
Possibly tasmania even, but still, c.s. much safer :)

I would say through what i have seen on at least the registration server, that on the most part the girls/women who play get treated as everyone else does not sure about when im not on though.

But nevertheless alot of other servers, female players seem to be either singled out cos their female and everyone is super nice to them, or people bitch if they get killed by them saying cheat cheat shes a girl she must cheat.

Very interesting Unseen. Did you try any Australian servers? (apart from GU because it just plain rawks ^_^)

Quote from Ebola Virus:
If you girls dont like it then leave, its a mans game anyway.
Just joking seriously, lol bet a few of u got upset before u read this line
nah its a pleasure playing and killing such lovely ladies. Where else can i kill u and get away with it. Besides maybe in iraq or iran.
Possibly tasmania even, but still, c.s. much safer :)

I thought you were a girl Ebola :P

and people wonder why geeks have trouble impressing women - what say we invest in some of those bb guns from Gunzee's post, and go hunting all these loosers who give us all such a bad rep

/me visualizes the whole Gamers Underground group suiting up and arming to go hunting for those bastards and Korny ( :D ).

A bunch of geeks with bb guns?
I can see it now
tn1: Need backup! Encountering resistance ;)

Awww screw that.. I have real firearms..

Lets all go on a rampage..

Mc donalds or a school.. U pick..

Im kidding *twitch, twitch*

But you dont have your Ak-47 anymore Fox, so count me out :)

i'm sure i saw that on Gamespot a while back.

interesting to read it again though.

what happened with that all chicks clan u peole had going anyway?
ff i think it was called?

Very good read, and some good points in there...

Neo why bring me up in this .... ? :cry: I am allways nice to all the girls, SperO, Lady, Flamm .....

Good post Unseen
Maybe you could do a major in psych outlining that the internet gaming in general is not as sexist/biased as "real world" competitions

i didn't write I found it and posted for all to read.

Its important to point out were you are collecting your data from before making any real big jumps in conclusions.

For the quick timers, this post will be about gamers the community and also the importance that we put on the nic name for identification and how easy it is to insult someone online.

I would take it unseen that you play CS maybe 1hr a night or from 4hrs to 5hrs a week, and you like the game and you want to get better at it over time right? And with time comes frustration when you cant get to the desired skill level that you would like to get to. For example, I would love the skill Recoil and Overdrive have, and how I am easily wiped off the area without much problem. Now if I wanted to get good as the people above, I know I would have to play the game a large deal, and this adds the element of a goal that needs to be reached. And I assume this happens everywhere around the CS community, “ People play to get good at the game “ and instead of a game it turns into a mission to try to be the best at what they are doing.

Well the player undergo there mission to be the best player in the game, they make good friends that have the same goal and desires in the same game, they bond together. How do they tell each other apart, by the player name. This is okay, until someone changes there name and they have to update the clan or gamers about there new name. So you see the player name starts to be a big part in the game. So people start taking the player name as a large part of what the person can and cannot do. For example, I join a game with the nic name “ Sniper “ what’s the first thing you think I will do, sniper. Next I join a another server with the name “ Loser “, what the first reaction of players for my skill level ha. Instead of a face to face interaction, players are faced with a way of only assuming what the player on the other side may or may not, act, react, move, say, do, ect.

Also I have found over the years with my online game life. That insulting people is one of the most easier things a person can do over the internet, or in any non face to face relationship. This gets to a point were I shot a friend in a game, and he would not talk to me for about 4 months because of me killing him in an online multiplayer game. I finally found out why and how it came about, but it just a very good example, because males tend to take things as a mission they become stress and easily effected by anything that you may consider friendly or just having fun.

Finally, I am not surprised that you got such a reaction from the online community when you joined that server with that nic name you choose. With a strongly Player basis that assumes most of a person from the nic name, you were going to get that reaction from any community that you choose. Even though I think now that most of your comments about the opposite sex were little off track. I think males and females can have fun on public servers in any area of game play. But changing your name to that nic and expecting players to not give you a overwhelming reaction to it.

Quote:
I had previously had a conversation with one of my female friends about guys/girls, and one of the things she mentioned was her opinion of guys was that guys felt they had to be "the best" to be worth anything. I thought
about it, and came to the conclusion that it was kind of true. Not that we guys feel we have to be the very, very best at everything we do, but we want to believe that we're the best at a few things, and rather good at the rest.
Well, from that perspective, most guys are pretty sexist, I'll admit. Even I have the tendency to think I can beat a girl at most things, regardless of whether it involves physical strength or not (though those are definitely included). It's a matter of ego, translating physical prowess to mean superior at everything, and yeah, that's probably a wrong perspective, but it's true that inside my head I often think like that, without even meaning to.

I would pretty much have to agree with most of this I know I am not the best at everything but I like to think I have the potential to be the best at everything. And when I say that I am not talking a male v's female thing I am talking me v's everyone else so I don't see it as sexist just confidence (overly so in some instances sure).

Quote:
I'm not arrogant I am just better than everyone else

always liked that quote.

I think yes guys are more aggressive in attitude and this comes accross sometimes badly at times and but in general I think it is the minority of players that make the sort of comments you are making above. I pretty much dont type a whole lot in game I read it alot and I don't remember the last time I made a cheat accusation (unless it was in bright colourfull colours accross the screen and followed by a ban) and I am too old to be trying to pick up online so that is out the window aswell.

[damn started typing and forgot what I wanted to actually say now I am lost and will just hit the submit]

Quote from Knight Of Nih:
what happened with that all chicks clan u peole had going anyway?
ff i think it was called?

ANYONE WANNA ANWSER?

Look guys I did not write this, I found it and brought it to your attention as something else to read.

I for 1 agree with Chad, as I play under a alias, and then I get called BS change my name to Unseen, and people change there approach .. Oh wait its unseen nah not bs .. pure skill well maybe not, but you get my point.

yeah i never would have thought that you'd stay up till 4am...oh wait.
Well i knew you wouldnt be living in america anyways.
Freakin americans....

Women, can't live with em, can't live without em, can't shoot em, cept in Kansas.

Quoted from some movie Ithink.

Years ago, I used to play under the name " WildKat " now often other players would think the Kat part stood for Kate, Katina, Katrina, etc..

Id be playing away, and someone would say " are U a girl ? "

Sometimes Id play on it, sometimes I didnt.. But attitudes would change drastically between the assumptions of gender..

Some guys couldnt handle being owned by a female, must have been way too much of a shock for their ego's. They would accuse me of cheating, call me names, everything. To them there was no way a girl could play better than them. It was pretty pathetic really.

And when I didnt play on it, and said nah Im a guy.. I would always get a comment " Thought so, a girl could play that well ".

Thankfully a gamer in this community is just that.. A gamer.. gender isnt relevant.

But it really does prove that the male Ego, is a inflated thing at the best of times..

SwErVe has a separate WON id for playing under a chicks name...Simone usually...

It's so funny watching the lame comments come out...even more funny when he plays along with them for a bit...

FF - Femme Fatale, has merged with another clan and they go under some tage like Gen MOD with some -=[ stuff in between somewhere. My sis is the leader of the clan ^_^

and there all chicks?
do they have a web site?

i don't think they are all chicks anymore knight cos they merged...they WERE an all girl clan...i could be wrong though.

just a point...how come so many people mistook unseen for a guy living in america named nighthawk...:P

unless of course he isn't telling us something ;)...

nar i think ruin means that the FF chicks merged with another chick clan
not sure though

The tag is =[MOD]= and my sis has Gen after that (I'm thinking for General?). She merged with a guy clan but her clan is the "female section" :P, and, they sorta have a website but it's el crappo and unused.

Hmm Unseen playing as a girl...for some reason that amuses me *grins*
That's one thing thing I love about GU, everyone treats each other as an equal (except ebola, but he's probably more of a girl then any of us can be :P). I haven't had all that much of a problem with the whole racist thing on any of the servers I've played on, sure, there's a few ocasional comments but that's to be expected :)

Anyways, nice post Unseen :)

it's a shame to see that female players are so harshly treated, or maybe it's just the americans ;). i don't mean to pigeon-hole all americans into one category, but i can say from experience that the vast majority of americans i have met are t0ssers.

I think that a few Aussies would be as bad as Americans, but we still have the sense of chivalry we inherited from the British.

Personally, I think women who play games, and female geeks in general, are good, we should be encouraging them. We need more female geeks.

Female Linux Geeks, now there is a mythical being I would like to meet.

Quote from Mephiston:

and people wonder why geeks have trouble impressing women - what say we invest in some of those bb guns from Gunzee's post, and go hunting all these loosers who give us all such a bad rep

Good call Mephiston count me in, i could always use a little more anarchy in my life. :wink:

Stuff that guys.

If we are hunting all those people down we could use something fun like this : http://www.backyardartillery.com/machinegun/

Just my 2 cents

nah - bb guns leave lasting impressions, you'd need one hell of a rubber band to break the skin :P

Or 144 of them muh ha ha

Pretty cool though. They have some nice Shanhais and trebuchets in there too.

Quote from Danny G:
Stuff that guys.

If we are hunting all those people down we could use something fun like this : http://www.backyardartillery.com/machinegun/

Just my 2 cents

yeah like that fuckign thing will fit in ya pockey
whata gonna do sit ther and bait people to walk infront of ya
i think there smarter than that

People/Units can generally be lead into traps once. Either they die or learn. learnt that reading about Erwin Rommel he used 88mm guns to lead british amoured columns into ambushes.

PS Back to the topic. there are also 12 shot versions.
PPS I am not really that serious mate

Quote from Aravi D'Teron:

Female Linux Geeks, now there is a mythical being I would like to meet.

Are you really sure you'd want to do that?? I mean somethings got to be wrong somewhere.... :shock:

i always thought that the majority of "chicks" are doods who are sad and have no time of their own.

but good post, computer gaming is a classic sence of hegemony.. (can't remember exact term, was year ago since doin PE.

with all that it doesn't feel right that a "chick" can play cs better than a dood, but, there are heaps of "male" players who are completely sk. and there prolly are chick players who are prolly as awesome as you could get, but seriously, could you imagine the social skills of a chick who was seriously good at cs? i dunno , i may be wrong saying this, but i would feel weird, but then again, those are the cultural beliefs of my society and inner circle.

.... :D

this can sort of relate to the defence forces, speaking for Army here.. Women are not allowed to do front line jobs .. ie be in the infantry, work with armour, anything that realtes to them being front line soldiers.

Quote from Darklyte:
[quote:bac74cf327="Aravi D'Teron"]
Female Linux Geeks, now there is a mythical being I would like to meet.

Are you really sure you'd want to do that?? I mean somethings got to be wrong somewhere.... :shock:[/quote:bac74cf327]

Don't you mean somethings gotta be RIGHT somewhere?

Quote from Iron Fist:
get, but seriously, could you imagine the social skills of a chick who was seriously good at cs? i dunno , i may be wrong saying this, but i would feel weird, but then again, those are the cultural beliefs of my society and inner circle.

.... :D

Right, so if a guy is good at cs his social life doenst suffer?
Puh-Lease. Whilst not so good at cs, my rts skills own. Ask whoever has vsed me at warcraft 3. And socially Im all there.
Although the majority of males seem to think Im some desperate chick who looks like a horse and has the personality of one to match.
I mean come on.. a female who plays computer games. Why would she be doing that when she could be out putting on makeup and shopping.

Ive never seen a male computer nerd leave his house and interact with the opposite sex!!!

Wait yes I have...........

hey opposite sex is good...who would want normal sex? :wink:

Dunno if anyone could pull off a hand-stand for long enough.

Ok before I say anything, I'l admit I'm a c*nt

I used to have a bind that went "The only chicks that play CS are either social rejects or have the face of a smashed oyster"

I am in the military and I never would have said it before I joined the armed services but I will say it now, loud and proud, WOMEN IN THE MAJORITY SHOULD NOT BE IN A PHYSICALLY DEMANDING ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE ALL THEY DO IS WHINGE AND COMPLAIN

Got a problem with my statement? Good, if I create arguments it means your listening :)

There are women who could handle it Reaps, just as their are men who couldn't.

Ze Reaper

I know what you are feeling. They have higher drop out rates keep getting preggas etc....... I do know a couple of corkers who are my good mates but in general that can cause more problems than blokes. Although I do know blokes who like to complain about everything.

Im Navy and there are no jobs in the navy that females arent allowed to do. mind you none have them have ever passed through to become a clearance diver, yet. Will ahve to be ultra butch then.

PS I better not say too much. My missus is a ADF chick.