Ecstasy - Curse or Blessing

Well from what has been said around the traps a little trip on the E is many times better than downing many a glass to try and improve ones night out on the town.

What are the feelings of the general masses...

Something that should be decrimised?

Should the Goverment take some control and let the factory's start so that it is a safer option if so many are playing the game?

Or is it the curse that should be removed from the masses?

If you feel you need to take drugs to feel better about yourself then that says very little for your personality...or perhaps it says a lot about lack thereof.

Personally i can do without a 3 AM trip to the hospital, a stomach pump shoved down my throat, irreversible brain damage and possibly death.

But that's just me.

E's are for tools.

This is my learned opinion and you can flame me all you want.

This isnt for flaming this is for public forum opinion.

Just a side question for you Jug, do you drink?

My opinion is why pay someone $50 to fry your brain?

Hmmm, this debate has been done to death and I'm sure more people know my stance on this. Look up a documentary called "Ecastacy Rising" by the ABC network in America. It's hosted by Peter Jennings. It shows a completely balenced and truthful perspective on the world of ecstacy. Should be required viewing for anyone who wishes to comment on this. Otherwise you get completely uneducated comments like that one ^^^, and Jug's.

EDIT: oh i really need to care less, you can't change people's opinions so why should i bother? cause i can't stop myself :( Look, Jug, MDMA does not cause "toxic meltdown". El Prez posted and excellent site which showed Triple J's Hack program interviewing the lead researcher at Royal Adelaide Hospital and he basically said that, no that does not happen due to MDMA, and that the current ad campaign by the g'ment against MDMA which shows a kid in hospital is basically made up. It does not happen. Sa'martok, I'm sure you are saying that because you were around to see the "hole in the brain" theory, or that it "frys your brain". That came from a study done by a man called Dr. Ricaurte. he showed a bunch of chimp who had apparently been given MDMA, and it showed huge areas of brain where activity had been recuded to the level where it appeared that there were "holes" in their brains. It later was revealed that Ricaurte gave his chimps crystal meth, a far more toxic and potent drug. He blamed the lab, the lab blamed him, the research was discarded. A later german study showed that MDMA does not infact cause large amounts of damage, a much smaller loss of seratonin levels compared to Ricaurte's study (in most subjects it did not affect their normal behaivour) which can be recovered after not taking MDMA for a period. Thats a whole lot less damage compared to the beating your liver takes when you go out for a night of binge drinking, or your lungs if you're a smoker.

Quote from Casual:
This isnt for flaming this is for public forum opinion.

Just a side question for you Jug, do you drink?
Yes I do, though as close friends will testify I drink nowhere near as much as I used to, same with other substances.

if u know someone who sells stuff which isnt made of shit, why not

why go out and spend "00 on drinks, when u can do something for a fraction of the price, and have the energy to go all night/morning with no morning hangover?

granted ive never had ecstacy, but i intend to try it some time soon.

Ill just start a download on that if I can now Uber, and Cow, make sure you can trust who ever you are getting it from, dont want a bad one and dont want a asprin either...

Look, guys the best thing to do is buy a reagent kit. They come in 2 types, Marquis and Mandelin, the names of the two reagents. The marquis is the primary one, it can show the difference between ecstacy like substances (MDX, the X stand for different substances like MDMA, MDA, MDE etc.), hallucinogenics, DXM, and amphetamine like substances. the mandelin basically does that same (is used as a confirmation) but can also show the presence of ketamine. I've been a user for a fair amount of time, and I can tell you that test kits are the best thing that the scene has seen in a long time. The Royal Adelaide Hospital wanted to begin a pill testing campaign that has been going on in Europe for years now but the g'ment didn't want to be seen as condoning ecstasy. Kind of silly, as the statistics have shown in Europe that it actually increases harm minimalisation.

EDIT: oh no im doing it again. msn me if you want more info

It really comes down to luck. Unless you are buying direct from the manufacturer, you cannot be sure what's in it.
Also, at the end of the day, we live in a society governed by laws and at this point in time this drug is illegal.

Uber, I haven't seen that ad or the Hack program's presentation of the topic. I have seen friends with huge potential to be whatever they want to be in life spend weekend after weekend taking eckies and pissing their lives away until eventually they work in a crap job in a video store, all potential gone.
I used to think it was way cool to go out and get high, drink twice as much as anyone else, and smoke a pack of cigs a day.
Then I decided that my life was worth more than anything some manufactured pill could ever do for me.

Ohhh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "drugs are great" or trying to glorify them or anything. I think using any mind altering substance too much be it alcohol or drugs is very, very bad. I do not use them regularly nor do I drink regularly or smoke at all. I'm jsut trying to dispel the myth that people think they are doing themselves a favour by drinking instead of taking MDMA, like its doing heroin or something. Newsflash people, basically every mind-altering substance insn't good for you. Just tell me what you think people would say about alcohol if we invented MDMA four thousand years ago and alcohol only tewnty years ago? I think that in that situation alcohol would be a banned substance for fears of liver cancer and stomach pumping. Oh and about what pills may or may not contain, read my post about test kits.

EDIT: I've seen that happen to people as well. Not just because of ecstasy, but also due to weed, alcohol and sadly heroin. In my experience, some people, if they didn't do that with MDMA, would do it with booze, or weed, or anything else. Some people have that sort of personality. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not telling everyone that they should go do MDMA. I'm trying to help the people that are going to try it regardless of what you say how to minimalise the risk, and to dispell some myths about MDMA.

Quote from JugV2:
I have seen friends with huge potential to be whatever they want to be in life spend weekend after weekend taking eckies and pissing their lives away until eventually they work in a crap job in a video store, all potential gone.
I used to think it was way cool to go out and get high, drink twice as much as anyone else, and smoke a pack of cigs a day.
Then I decided that my life was worth more than anything some manufactured pill could ever do for me.

This man deserves a medal.

I still see it as a stupid risk, everyone said for decades that alcohol and cigarettes were good for you, and surprise surprise, now we know cigarettes kill you and alcohol isnt too good either. (pre-emptive rebuttal: I realise a drink or two a day isnt necessarily bad for you, but then many people dont have just a drink or two)

that's the thing which has made me not do drugs yet.

my best mate during year 12, most motivated guy uve ever met..had the potential to become a paramedic which he dreamt of, started getting into pot, which was alright with us. took ecstacy early 2004, the year after we graduated, got himself into a psychosis. has never been the same, quiet, now he's working nightfill at woolworths, and genuinely believes that the CIA/FBI are after him...bugging his mobile and all that sort

however, i have a good friend, who happens to be my supervisor who occasionally does ecstacy, and another of two of my workmates who have bought their stuff of him, he's a close friend, and i trust what he might get me...it's more of something to try...instead of going out and spending "00 on drinks...$30 a pill and i can wake up with no hangover....

i dont think you can criticise people who choose to do pills, alcohol although might not be as lethal as pills, has as huge social affects as other "hard" drugs.

I would suggest that with the current research available, MDMA is by no means lethal. But, the pills you buy on the street have all sorts of crap in them, usually with large amounts of amphetamines (read: speed-like substances), and ketamine (read: nasty). That's why testing is so helpful in reducing harm.

Cow, the guy went psycotic after taking an ecstasy pill? I've never heard of that before, though I have seen that happen to people from generally being drug-f*cked. Usually off much taking harder things for a long time though, (I'm talking mushrooms, ice and other nasty things like that for a few years).

EDIT: Bathy is spot on, speed is nasty.

Dont try speed Cow. You'll spend $200 on drinks, plus the speed. :(

"I've seen that happen to people as well. Not just because of ecstasy, but also due to weed, alcohol and sadly heroin. In my experience, some people, if they didn't do that with MDMA, would do it with booze, or weed, or anything else. Some people have that sort of personality."

That's right; some people have an addictive personality. I'm fairly sure that I was headed down that same road when I was in my late teens and early twenties.
For some people the substance is irrelevant.

I tell you what is addictive - sneaking up behind Seqo in COD and blowing him away with your BAR. :)

Anything can ruin your life if taken to excess, look at you MSN account and count the number of ppl that are on right now and playing WOW, thats not a drug at all but if they are like my flat mate they are stuck on it atleast 48 hours a week.

I'm didnt start this to say "hey everyone pill up and party",

"Then I decided that my life was worth more than anything some manufactured pill could ever do for me."

- yet I guess you still have the odd drink, if they where factory safe it could also be the odd pill could it not....

Uber: he went into a psychosis after an trip off ecstacy, we dont think that was the first he tried, but he maye have done it a couple of times before. he always had a psychological problem, his little brother had ADD ~ADHD, and were sure he had a bit of it in him as well, was always a troubled quite kid. i think the drop of e pushed him over...

Quote from Cow:
Uber: he went into a psychosis after an trip off ecstacy, we dont think that was the first he tried, but he maye have done it a couple of times before. he always had a psychological problem, his little brother had ADD ~ADHD, and were sure he had a bit of it in him as well, was always a troubled quite kid. i think the drop of e pushed him over...

Well that's the thing; generally when a drug induces a violent or unexpected reaction, it's because there was already a condition within that person that the drug/drink reacted with. Unfortunately you can't tell until it's too late.

You don't trip on MDMA. At all. I don't know what he took, but it wasn't MDMA. This is why the government needs to sponser pill testing :( it's so goddamn cheap and it would save so much harm like that. Also, some people should not be taking drugs. If you have a brain/mental disorder do not touch drugs, at all. That includes alcohol, panadol and caffeine unless your doctor says so.

Uber, remember the Gvt's response to shooting galleries and needle exchanges in the early nineties? I understand what you are saying about testing kits and I wholeheartedly agree, but it's a very brave Gvt that approves such a program.

Now let's all throw stuff at Casual for making us think at this time of night...

I know but they've been doing it in Europe for years. And they've shown statistically that it reduces harm. The majority of punters, if shown that their pill contained something other than they expected, threw it away. I don't see how brave the g'ment has to be to try something that has been shown to work :( I think Aussies are way too conservative. Oh well.

*lobs a fridge in Casual's general direction*

My opinion is that E is a drug that is safe if you aren’t stupid. Just like alcohol.
I would rather take a pill in town then drink because when I’m drunk I have the potential to stumble, throw up, slurred speech etc. with E I will chatter my teeth (if I don’t have gum or smokes) and sweat a tad more.
On grog I have been ejected from a club 3 or 4 times, on the pills none.
I use it in moderation (once a calendar month and only 1-1.5-2 over the courses of the night).
I couldnt give a rats if people dont wanna try it, thats up to them. Personally i would never try weed.

http://www.pillreports.com/ is a good source of information if your a E taker.

I reckon you nailed it right there; aussies are conservative. Not on everything, but certainly on this issue.

*lobs an unwanted black Labrador over Casual's back fence*

It's a funny, funny, niave world we live in. Props to those of you not so narrow minded and opinionated.

I dont really care, wouldn't call it a curse or a blessing.. Personally its a waste of money, just like alcohol, but hey thats just me. No I don't ever intend to try extasy, I can think of better ways to have fun.

Is it a good thing? Well no I can't really see how it is a good thing, other than giving you a hit. Is it bad? Well it can be, but that's just like many other things. I think people fail to realise not what the drug does to you but the outcomes of what may happen in such a state, alcohol is the same. Not to mention the possible risks with buying it off the street, how is avg Joe meant to know what it is for sure.

I personally think the worst one is smoking, that's just horrid.. thats probably worse then taking extasy. While I have no problem with people taking it, I do however hope they stay away from driving, etc and not risk causing any problems, damage and so on. Thats all I care.

i can buy a bottle of jamisons 8 years or an E...

Personally ive never taken it because ive had friend go to hospital or take it to often and fail uni (most of my mates where on around 4-6 pills tho, freaks...). Also dont give me shit about alchol giving a hangover, because people the next morning from an E there out for like 2 days. Natural ****ing light hurts there eyes...

Until you find your friend going to hospital from it you wont take it.

e alters the seretonin levels in the brain inducing the immediate after effects that are felt for the course of one night. However the seretonin levels in the brain do not return to normal in less then two weeks. this means a person who takes e on a more regular basis then once every two weeks i.e weekly will not have enough time for the seretonin levels to return to normal. This results in permanent changes in the chemical levels of a users brain. Hence over time people need more to get the same buzz (e.g know people who used to take half a pill that now take 2). Anyways my opinion is pretty consistent with most peoples here its ok in moderation or in this case no more then once a fortnight. However its well known that most e pills contain a variety of other drugs and are not pure ecstasy so for that simple reason i dont personally touch the stuff at all.

Alcohol is my drug of preference particularly chartreuse which actually contains hallucigenic elements. Lucky for me ive never gotten a hangover in my life :D .

Quote from phillip:

Alcohol is my drug of preference particularly chartreuse which actually contains hallucigenic elements. .
Eater introduced me to green chartreuse, was nice. made DoM fall asleep though. hehe

Some notes generally.

I am in favour of the complete legalisation of at least marijuana and ecstasy; to a lesser extent heroin and cocaine. It's a matter of principle - that you own your body, and you may do with it more or less as you please. Drug abuse is of course a horrible thing, but so too is widespread property crime, rampant corruption, gang violence and daytime murder.

Quote from phillip:
e alters the seretonin levels in the brain inducing the immediate after effects that are felt for the course of one night. However the seretonin levels in the brain do not return to normal in less then two weeks.

More or less true.

Quote:
this means a person who takes e on a more regular basis then once every two weeks i.e weekly will not have enough time for the seretonin levels to return to normal. This results in permanent changes in the chemical levels of a users brain.

This is hotly disputed with conflicting research.

You may in fact be thinking of cocaine, which out of common drugs is absolutely the worst, because it can cause permanent damage to the dopamine mechanisms of the brain. Currently these changes are irreversible, though generally few people reach truely dangerous levels of harm. They've overdosed, suffered heart failure or been killed instead - or arrested.

Interesting work is being done by some biotech companies in producing "drug vaccines" - ie coaxing an immune response to drug molecules. The idea is that white blood cells will mob drug molecules, making them too large to cross the blood-brain barrier.

Quote:
However its well known that most e pills contain a variety of other drugs and are not pure ecstasy so for that simple reason i dont personally touch the stuff at all.

This arises directly from prohibition. Buyers of illegal drugs do not enjoy the usual legal rights - both in common law and statute - that protect buyers of legal goods. Furthermore the market mechanism of reputation is greatly weakened, although various websites are beginning to turn this around somewhat.

For those nervous about an onslaught of e sloshing around upon legalisation, the regulatory framework of alcohol offers an obvious model. Legal standards for purity, composition and labelling, plus limitation as to who may sell the product.

That said, I personally expect that if you legalised MDMA on monday, by friday it'd be available over the counter at Discovery.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether recreational drugs are taxed or not.

IMO, you don't try or use something just because it's legal or otherwise. You try it because you're curious, because you want to learn or experience something. Hopefully, you choose to do this on an informed basis, and not because you're just following the herd.

..... hmmmmm $30-$40 for an E of 2 bottles of beam for $50 :D... = $25 a bottle and buy yourself a huge steak and some snags for "0 and cook it with your drunk mates. hmmmmm

Yeah... i like my method alot better. Our group has a mix of people who drink, do E's and just smookeee da weed. Drinking does the job to me. Soon as you start mixing is when you get ****EDZOR

People who go out to town every week and spend "00 on alcohol must be plain and simply stupid? Why don't u have half a bottle before you go to town if your that worried that you need any type of drugs to have a good time?

oh.... BEAM is the best

Legalising marijuana imo is a bad call. I believe moderate to heavy use during a few of my teenage years has badly affected my memory as well as my overall motivation levels during those few years.

As I understand it, the problem these days stems from the fact that Marijuana is no longer a soft drug. I saw a guy who used to be pro-legalisation on the TV saying he changed his mind when he realised that in the 70's it probly wasnt so bad, but the weed you get these days is much more potent than anything you used to able to get, and more damaging.

Re: the other tyes of drugs, no idea.

i'm all for the legalisation of hard drugs, for the reason that the government can regulate what is going out to the community. Instead of bad batches of pills or heroin/cocaine going onto the market and causing overdoses, they can watch what goes on. Althought i don't think it'll ever happen in our lifetimes or the next, drug legalisation who solve a lot of hassles

IT WOULD FREE SCHAPELLE DAMMIT! :P

Teh way i see it, i have no ****ing idea what they're putting into that pill, so im not about to put it in my body.

Yeh im a drinker, yeh it probably does just as much damage over time (DoT :P).
But on the same note, i know that im not going to need to go to hospital, from have a few Rums, where-as as i see it, i would be taking that risk popping an 'E'.

Theres no such thing as a 'safe' drug.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma.shtml
A really good site for info on ecstacy (and plenty of other drugs)

El Prez is right, you can't fight markets. There will always be a market for ecstasy, along with other illegal drugs. The most sensible option is to legalise them, and allow the markets to work for you. Not once in history has anyone ever fought market forces and won. The USA, and to a lesser extent Aus, have dug themselves a huge hole in the "war on drugs". They realise now that it is a war they can't possibly win. But they can't go back on thier hard-line stance or they will be seen to be "weak". They've indoctrined too much misinformation and anti-drug propaganda into people's heads that now they can't change their own position. Kind of silly on their part.

EDIT: Phillip, the study done in 2003 by a german group of scientists showed that their subjects only lost around 5% of normal seratonin levels, which did not affect their normal behavior and was recoverable after they stopped using MDMA. So, I would suggest that that is simply not true.

Here is a link to the documentary, "Ecstasy Rising". Sorry about the web site it is hosted on, it's the only one i could find. Also, sorry that you need RealPlayer to watch it, I use real alternative.

http://pot.tv/archive/shows/pottvshowse-2610.html

Here is a little review about the show from erowid.ord:

Quote:
The main messages of Ecstasy Rising can be summarized as: Ecstasy has become the second most popular illegal psychoactive drug for new users, its use has grown at an unprecedented rate, there are many seemingly sane people who believe it can be beneficial, the government has radically overstated the health risks in order to try to stop young people from trying it, the "holes in the brain" research was just wrong, and the exaggeration of the risks alone may have cost our society more than we know.

"I've never heard people say to me 'methamphetamine improved my life, I'm a better person for having used methamphetamine'. Same thing with cocaine. I know people who like to use cocaine, but I've never heard anybody try to claim 'cocaine is good for me'. MDMA, lots of people think the drug improved their life, and continued to think that after they stopped using it."
-- Dr. Mark Kleiman pHD.

If real alternative is too much effort, I think there are torrents of it around.

Edit: Oh and El Prez, there have been recent studies showing that when a brain is depleted of dopamine and seratonin and then given more MDMA, the overeheating which causes neurotoxicity does not occur. But yeah, cocaine is very nasty to the dopamine receptors in the brain. Don't touch cocaine kids.

It also overheats your body, meaning you loose fat from parts of your body that arent meant to loose it.

Ever wondered why so many raver chicks have klingon foreheads?
And its permanent too...but of course only happens with overuse..which is bad for you no matter your poison ;)

If you take drugs you're a f***ing idiot. Just because you 'think' E's are better then alcohol, doesn't make it good. Alcohol is crap, and the fact that so many people drink it just shows that the general mentality of people is at an all time low.

I wouldnt say its an all time low, people have been drinking alcohol since the birth of christ.

Maybe they were dropping acid as well...could explain the whole 'parting of the sea' shit.

Didn't beer or ale or mead or something start with the Babylonians? Fair bit before christ I think not 100% sure.

Hell, even Vikings drank Honey meed, and we all know what a bad-ass Thor was!

Quote:
Knight Of NihQuote:
Originally Posted by phillip

Alcohol is my drug of preference particularly chartreuse which actually contains hallucigenic elements. .

Eater introduced me to green chartreuse, was nice. made DoM fall asleep though. hehe

lol it doesnt have hallucigenic elements, it contains alchomohol :D
There all syns blends now :(

Ive got 4 bottles of absence, but i had to get a friend to add the worm wood for me.

Any alchol that you thought contained hallucigenics most likely doesnt, unless its a homebrew. most hallucigenics were taken out around 1910 from memory.

green chartreuse does contain thujone, but only a little bit

if you wanna have a fun night and dance to the wee hours, drink chartreuse, it just gives u the WORST hangover ever

Quote from Milenko:
I wouldnt say its an all time low, people have been drinking alcohol since the birth of christ.

Maybe they were dropping acid as well...could explain the whole 'parting of the sea' shit.
lol.. apparently the egyptians used some pretty nasty hallucinogenics too. actually, and so did the celts... when they weren't drinking blood. come to think of it, I think opium-smoking traces back to arabian and mongul eras aswell.

infact, the dawn of the age of reason and the end to the dark ages is probably just one big withdrawl symptom.

If you take Ecstacy/MDMA IT WILL KILL YOU... That is if you believe the government or you can believe that with harm reduction taking ecstacy/MDMA can be less of a risk to your health.

The general public will tend to believe what the government says about drugs because why would they (The Government) want to lie about something like that???

Wake up and think for yourselves people... the only reason the government puts this vicious propaganda on TV & Radio is for the scare factor. They hope to scare the general public into thinking that if I take ecstacy/MDMA/speed/marijuana/non-legal drugs I will die or be fscked up forever.

I agree that there are many dangers attached to taking ecstacy/MDMA but this is not the way to go about educating the public about the dangers.
The majority of people that take ecstacy/MDMA accept the risks of taking an illegal, sometimes unknown purity, brain altering drug. But it is the people that have no knowlege of the risks that need to know about things like Harm Reduction and to know what the drug REALLY does to their bodies.

If you want to believe what our/the worlds government tells you, then that is up to you and you are entitled to believe them if you choose, Or you can look outside the square, look past the brainwashing and see for yourself what it really is all about.

Don't be afraid to learn a little...

MDMA: Essential Guide from bluelight

All about Enlighten Harm Reduction

Literature about MDMA from Enlighten

The New Bluelight - Links Database - Harm Reduction

19/4/2005 - Triple J - Illicit Drugs Advertising Campaign
A very interesting interview that involves Christopher Pyne (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health and Ageing) and Dr. David Caldicott (Research Fellow for the Royal Adelaide Hospital), and some very good questions from the interviewer Steve Cannane. Alcohol and tobacco are drugs, and no drug is safe; even legal ones.

The MAPS' website offers comprehensive and updated information about MAPS efforts to develop MDMA into an FDA-approved prescription medicine.

This is your brain on Ecstacy (An MDMA Neurochemistry Slideshow)

Drug Information about Ecstacy

A Rough Guide To Ecstasy

PillReports.com - Ecstasy test result database

You can find many sites that will explain every angle of MDMA, so as Ripley says Believe It Or Not.

And Monkey saves the day with the reality of it all... read some of those links people.

Monkey I think that slideshow is a little out dated.

It points the neurotoxicity finger at dopamine. The theory basically goes that MDMA raises your body temperature. As your body temperature rises, certain enzymes in your brain function less effectively. As your seratonin levels are depleted, dopamine can find it's way into the seratonin receptors. The dopamine is then broken down into hydrogen peroxide and other reactive oxygen molecules. The enzymes I was talking about protect your brain by breaking down the hydrogen peroxide and other nastys into less reactive chemicals (including water). As temperatures rise, these enzymes become less effective, and eventually stop working altogether, leaving the nastys to run wild and attack the axon.

Buuuut, a study was done that showed this can't possibly be true, or at least not in the way that scientists had beleived. If my memory serves me correctly it may have been one of Ricaurte's studies that proved this though I might be wrong. Basically, a bunch of animals who had virtually all of the serotonin and dopamine in their brains removed were given what should have been a neurotoxic dose of MDMA. And nothing happened. There was no damage. At first, it seemed as though the 'dopamine' theory had been right, (seeing as the MDMA itself wasn't neurotoxic). But, the scientists saw that there was something else that was different, when they gave them the overdose of MDMA, they didn't overheat as expected.

BOOM! HEADSHOT! Dopamine theory out the window, because it relies on the belief that MDMA overheats the enzymes which protect the brain from dopamine neurotoxicity. That doesn't happen, so why is MDMA neurotoxic in large doses? Well as yet there is no definitive answer. But, for starters, the doses we are talking about here are huge. To over dose a lab animal on MDMA, scientists would inject them with up to 50mg/kg of body weight. Which is huuuuge. A human taking a recreational dose usually only takes up to 2mg/kg. Also, injecting a drug bypasses stomach and all its digestive goodness and puts the drug striaght into the bloodstream much more quickly than taking a drug orally would. So, an animal that gets an injection is exposed to much higher peak concentrations of the drug. Which pretty much hugely exagerates the overheating, and in turn the neurotoxicity of MDMA. I'm not saying MDMA isn't neurotoxic, because testing on animals shows that in high enough doses it is. But, no research has shown that the amount a person would take on a night out can be at all neurotoxic. In fact there are people who have taken over thousands of pills, (dating back to before it was illegal, the original ecstasy people in Dallas, USA) who testify that it has had absolutely no effect on their brain function.

Buuut, I personally don't trust anecdotal evidence too much, so while there is no evidence to suggest short term damage, we can't be 100% sure that there is no long-term damage. So don't fool yourself by thinking there are no risks what so ever. Because there is so much more research that needs to be done before you could say that.

Oh and the stuff you buy on the streets, (while fun as!), is full of all kinds of nastys. I'm talking about pure, MDMA. The majority of pills you find these days don't even have alot of MDMA in them, usually they're a mixture of MDA, MDE, MDMA, amphetamines, methamphetamines and speed. So be careful.

EDIT: i wish i put as much effort into my uni work as this haha, but this is so much more interesting :D

Uber Tard is right ^^ .. also as before, if you plan to dump pills, for god sakes buy a tester kit.

This is a pointless argument.

Life's short I couldn't give a shit about what people say excess consumption of ANYTHING will **** you up long term. At least this way I'm gonna go out loving life and not passed out in a gutter talking about how much everyone hates me while trying to ensure my stomach contents remain in my stomach.

Ahhhhhh the infamous 5 am spill all to all

Reading this has been informative and educational, and its good to see responsible and inquisitve attitudes to something long branded as Dark Voodoo.
Only thing i have to add is whatever you do, do it with good friends in a good environment and always with a smile on your Soul

The reason the Govt. has such a stance on 'illicit' drugs, is because its;

A - Not an income source
B - Not regulated.

The problem is, is that a large majority of illicit drug users are ignorant to the effects or to the precautions they should be taking. Hence, you end up with dead users. The other problem, is the first time user who OD's or requirs an emergency run to the Hospital.

I barely even drink anymore, and i havent had a cone in over 12 months.
Theres also a reason why drugs of this kind (e's) have a certain Stigma about them, and thats because they are known to Kill people.

Long term effects from things like Alcohol and Marijuana are'nt forced down peoples throats like you see in the TV campaigns, but again, that doesnt mean they dont have the same debilitating effects.

thujone is banned in aust cowsy

Can sombody shot him please?

Well this is an awesome thread; thus far I have learnt a lot more about the “dreaded” E than I knew when I started this, thanks to those who have posted in a manner fitting to that.

I see some people’s posts and I see an uninformed view that is really just the social comment of their conservative parents and pare group, in others I see an informed view either against or for the drug that really is the choice of this generation.

My own view is that alcohol and Mary-Jane are both a depressant and the after effects of the few days or even weeks in Mary’s case are a low effect, my life since leaving those behind me and moving onto a drug that’s after effects are a smile and a laugh coupled with the desire to turn the station to 91.5 is better (will it be in the long run, well Thus far it seems if there are long terms effects they are much more minimal than the liver disease or psychological issues of my last choices in a long term situation.)

In so far as saying that, "everything in moderation", so lets not go popping E's every night....

I’m not sure if some one posted it or if it was in the Doco or on a website that has been posted, (and I can’t be bothered looking for it that much) but some where, some one has said “The users of E unlike other drug do not regret their time spend on E even after they has stopped using the Drug” or something to that degree.

As a Pot smoker a few years back I know that I look at the time spent stoned and think “what a waste”, sitting around smashed, but everyone of my real life in person friends that have tried and/or still try E are more than happy to talk of it, and none have said, “Damn I regret that night/nights…”

Regrets for nights out seem to belong to the drunken sleazy selves hitting on some chick that they or she will regret in the morning, or vomiting in the gutter.

Quote:
"I've never heard people say to me 'methamphetamine improved my life, I'm a better person for having used methamphetamine'. Same thing with cocaine. I know people who like to use cocaine, but I've never heard anybody try to claim 'cocaine is good for me'. MDMA, lots of people think the drug improved their life, and continued to think that after they stopped using it."
-- Dr. Mark Kleiman pHD.

That was in my post Casual :P

Anyway you look at it, that shit ****s with your brain.
Anything that ****s with your brain and is cooked in a backyard lab, cant be good for you :P

As i said before, theres no such thing, as a safe drug.
Dont kid yourself by thinking that E's are harmless adn that you wont be affected, because you read up on it.

Its like saying 'I read all about revolvers, and the way bullets are made. So when i play russian roullette, im alot safer'.

Milenko, alchohol (among other legal drugs) ****s with your brain too. You do realise this?

Is coffe okay?

coffee is addictive, it stains your teeth, kills vitamins and nutrients in your body, can lead to heart palpitations.

Quote from rec:
Milenko, alchohol (among other legal drugs) ****s with your brain too. You do realise this?

Quote from Milenko:

As i said before, theres no such thing, as a safe drug.

Alcohol is a drug, no doubt about it. I never said that there arent other nasty drugs, but the topic of discussion is about Eccies, thus the focus is there.

But, as i said previously, alcohol is overlooked because its been legal and socially acceptable for hundreds of years. I completely agree, alcohol causes more deaths each year (i assume) than eccies do, and hell, over the course of history, its probably a disgustingly large number.

Im merely trying to make the point, that you cannot and will not ever take these drugs safely. You may be SAFER than your average ignorant user, but im just saying, please dont convince yourself that you will not be harmed.

I used to be a smoker (Well, ive gone 5 days so far, im trying to give up. ), so i know how easy denial is to use as a self-excuse.

Proven Fact - Alchohol Kills Brain cells, Backyard or Frontyard...

Safe Drug .... Buying E's in Holland?

Quote from Milenko:
But, as i said previously, alcohol is overlooked because its been legal and socially acceptable for hundreds of years. I completely agree, alcohol causes more deaths each year (i assume) than eccies do, and hell, over the course of history, its probably a disgustingly large number.

Nevertheless, alcohol is signifcantly less harmful today, for two reasons mainly.

First is the march of technology. It is much easier now than in the past to verify the particular ethanol and methanol content of a drink. Most of what are today jokey terms about drinking ("I got blind drink, ha ha") arose from the fact that methanol can cause that kind of permanent neural damage. So being able to eliminate methanol from alcoholic drinks is important and useful.

Secondly, alcohol is legal, so there are no difficult legal barriers to surmount when one sets out to test its purity. Additionally, standards of purity and consistency are enforced in regulation.

While the technology exists to test the purity of MDMA in a tablet, it is severely hampered by legal obstacles (ie, one needs to possess an illegal substance in order to test it). Since the possession of testing kits are likely to make folk suspicious, most users will avoid using them. In a situation where ripped off or harmed customers have no way of suing their suppliers for bad product, why would the producers care about the purity or consistency of their doses? Many just don't.

Quote from Casual:
Anything can ruin your life if taken to excess, look at you MSN account and count the number of ppl that are on right now and playing WOW, thats not a drug at all but if they are like my flat mate they are stuck on it atleast 48 hours a week.

That's very true ^^

Alcohol brings violence amonst people (pulling out letterboxes, damaging property, causing fights everywhere) - is ecstasy known to do this?

Thats not the best example.
Ive been drunk many times, as have many of my friends, and none have been violent.

ALot of people drink until they're drunk, have an excellent time and then go to bed and wake up with a hang-over. This is comparable to E's, except you dont get the hangover :P

Not all Alochol users are violent, as im sure not all E users are happy.

End of the day, they are both behaviour modifying substances.
Its not about chosing the lesser of two evils here, or maybe it is.

**** it, y'all do what you want :P
I will just stay away from em.

The E's you drop this weekend wont hurt you, just like the one(s) last weekend didnt hurt you.......Did they?
Or perhaps it takes long term usage to show you its effects...or perhaps one of your friends OD'ing, or getting a bad pill and dying in front of you.

You guys should talk about it over a drink :)

Quote from pres:
In a situation where ripped off or harmed customers have no way of suing their suppliers for bad product, why would the producers care about the purity or consistency of their doses?
repeat business; I doubt you'd find many suppliers of illegal substances at all, who are laid back about poisoning their customers.

But arent the 'makers' the faceless criminals?
They have, afterall, dealers and middlemen.

of course they are, or do, or both :)

but like any industry, it's success still depends on word of mouth and street credit. this in itself keeps the playing field surprisingly safe. unsure about it? testing kit. they don't want it to be tested? don't buy it.

Doyen is actually pretty much spot on. Generally I've found that if a dealer wants to stay in business he only deals in what people want - that's good quality merchandise. Hell, alot of them even test the stuff they sell nowadays. No shit. I know you must have this idea in your head like the makers are these retards filling it with rat poison and animal semen jsut cause they can like in the g'ment sponsored ads but they are actually businessmen albeit not traditional ones :P Having said that, if you don't test them yourself or believe any old spastic on the street that what hes selling you is safe you're kidding yourself.

Crikey, faith in mutual self interest. I'm heartened.

Though it'd still be nice to have the stick as well as the carrot.

Dealers aren't dealers for long if they're pushing bad product. Some of them just lose their 'clients', others get stabbed, like an Adealide local who was passing PMA pills off as ecstasy. The same goes for ketamine, and various other chemicals.

Every dealer I know tests the product they're pushing both with various kits, and most even try it themselves.

The thing about most end-of-the-line dealers is that they want to keep their clients happy and preserve the positives that people take out of experimenting with drugs and the club scene, not tarnish it and hurt their friends and business.

If there's anyone in the chain that doesn't give a shit, it's sometimes the manufacturers themselves. But that doesn't always matter when the dealers you meet in clubs and on the street will most of the time be testing them as described above before sending them further.

Well, i guess its good to know theres at least SOME quality control :P

A movie I reccomend is called "layer cake" its how you dont **** the middle man over with shit drugs.

But seriously whilst ecstasy has no proven long term effects its basically saying we are taking a drug we know nothing about. I am addicted to only one drug and thats caffiene, I get headaches when I dont get my daily ice coffee. It sucks..

I like to take all substance abuse in moderation.. stepping outside these days causes damage. Just stop stressing and do what you want to do because it makes you happy. Ecstasy I enjoy so I will continue to take it. They will have to find some pretty nasty side effect for me to consider quitting.

I mean I still drink and I know alcohol causes disease of the liver...

Ever the soothsayer Sper0, I agree completely ;)

Quote from rec:
If there's anyone in the chain that doesn't give a shit, it's sometimes the manufacturers themselves. But that doesn't always matter when the dealers you meet in clubs and on the street will most of the time be testing them as described above before sending them further.

"All of the time" would be much more reassuring.

Quote from Aravi:
"All of the time" would be much more reassuring.

That would be nice in a perfect world Aravi, but you have to understand that line of work aint exactly legal or bound by any regulation as such. Just be careful tis all.

Honestly, I'm not into putting crap back into my body (except Dr Pepper, that's awesome stuff).

Please read the following.
http://www.ecstasy.ws/e-side-effects.htm
http://www.recovery.org.uk/druginfo/index.html
http://www.talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/E/Ecstasy.aspx
http://www.drugs.com/MDMA/

Hitokiri, why don't you read the rest of the thread before telling others to read misinformation. Yes there are health risks, but neurotoxicity with MDMA isn't one of them.

(Remember MDMA does not = street ecstasy)

Quote from http://www.recovery.org.uk/druginfo/index.html:
Ecstasy is an hallucinogenic stimulant

Incorrect. MDMA is not a hallucinogen, however it can produce mild visual effects (colors seem brighter, textures may seem 'smoother'.)

Quote from http://www.ecstasy.ws/e-side-effects.htm:
Brain imaging research in humans indicates that Ecstasy causes injury to the brain, affecting neurons that use the chemical serotonin to communicate with other neurons.

A far too general statement. What kind of damage? MDMA does not cause any lasting or behavior altering damage to seratonin receptors. See my post about Ricaute's flawed study and the current studies and theories.

Quote from http://www.talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/E/Ecstasy.aspx:
Using E has also been linked to liver, kidney and heart problems.
Really? Shit, I'd better go get that bottle of bourbon out instead...

The only valid points those sites make is that 1) You don't know what's in a pill. The exact same point I've made in at least 2 or 3 posts. Thanks for reading them... 2) MDMA does elevate body temperature - read my post about the flawed theories of neurotoxicity for more info on the body temp issuse.

EDIT: oh and 3) MDMA is illegal.

Quote:
A far too general statement. What kind of damage?

Oh I'm sure it's only the good kind of brain damage

Sounds like Brisbane is full of "pop pillers"

How about, I was asking what kind because it's far too easy to say, "X is bad for you. It causes damage." I wanted to know specifically what kind of damage and to what parts of the brain it claims MDMA causes. Because I actually am very interested by this subject, and I would like to know. Troll somewhere else please? You too shannow.

EDIT: Quote from shannow:
"pop pillers"

Is that a joke? I don't get it... Are you dyslexic or did you make it that way round to somehow suggest that people who do pills are stupid or something? Or is it just a mistake?

Quote:
"Hitokiri, why don't you read the rest of the thread before telling others to read misinformation. Yes there are health risks, but neurotoxicity with MDMA isn't one of them."
In an attempt to make sure I had sufficient information, I provided a few links, not just one, to seperate places, many with some foundation in fact.

Quote:
(Remember MDMA does not = street ecstasy)
Which would explain why half of those sites (maybe all) informed us of it (be it directly or indirectly).

--

Quote:
Incorrect. MDMA is not a hallucinogen, however it can produce mild visual effects (colors seem brighter, textures may seem 'smoother'.)
That's a pretty accurate description of what an hallucinogen is.
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=hallucinogen

Quote:
A far too general statement. What kind of damage? MDMA does not cause any lasting or behavior altering damage to seratonin receptors. See my post about Ricaute's flawed study and the current studies and theories.
I don't believe I'd honestly be able to say it does or doesn't to either. I've never tried it, nor do I intend to. When the majority of medical professionals indicate that it causes long term memory loss, I tend to listen. This in itself would then make it a Neurotoxin. I can't prove it, it's hardly a passion of mine to even warrent me trying to.

Quote:
Really? Shit, I'd better go get that bottle of bourbon out instead...

The only valid points those sites make is that 1) You don't know what's in a pill. The exact same point I've made in at least 2 or 3 posts. Thanks for reading them... 2) MDMA does elevate body temperature - read my post about the flawed theories of neurotoxicity for more info on the body temp issuse.

EDIT: oh and 3) MDMA is illegal.

Number 2 is an invalid point then. ^_~

---

The reality is, that people may still get valid and usable information out of those websites, or hell... DOING A GOOGLE, and finding those within the first page.

Quote from Hitokiri Kensuke:
That's a pretty accurate description of what an hallucinogen is.
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=hallucinogen
Maybe you could also use the same brush to paint alcohol as an hallucinogen?

Look... I don't try and tell everyone that taking/using ecstacy/MDMA/MDA/MDEA/etc
is safe because I can't. Nothing in life is safe. If you drank enough DR Pepper I am sure that you would have some sort of adverse reaction from overuse. I just did a google and found what that word means.

See "Overuse"

Overuse may cause problems in long term or short term, But the problem is that no-one knows for sure. You show me the 100% true unbiased report of the clinical trials of the effects of Ecstacy/MDMA/MDA/MDEA/etc consumption on humans. Quote from Hitokiri Kensuke:
...I've never tried it, nor do I intend to. When the majority of medical professionals indicate that it causes long term memory loss, I tend to listen... What about if these "medical professionals" have no idea what they are talking about and they would rather tell joe public untruths than say that they know nothing for sure about the effects.
It is possible that overuse and long term overuse of Ecstacy/MDMA/MDA/MDEA/etc may cause some problems to humans, but FFS lets make sure of it all before we go "crying wolf".

What I would like to see happen is proper unbiased/rigged clinical trials and government endorsement of Harm Reducation at nightclubs and events, because the government cannot/willnot ever stop all ecstacy/MDMA/MDA/MDEA/etc use, so why not try to lessen the risk to the people that do use it.

Quote from Hitokiri Kensuke:
Honestly, I'm not into putting crap back into my body (except Dr Pepper, that's awesome stuff).

Are you really sure about that? What You Should Know About Soft Drinks. Maybe you should stop being so naive. ^_~

Haha represent monkeh!

The majority of medical professionals probably don't stay up to date with the latest research. I try my hardest to, as do a few mates of mine (1 chem and 1 neuroscience student @ uq - not acting asif they know everything cause they study that, I just put it in cause the fact that they study that stuff allows them to explain some of the more difficult points to me). If you look at the results of the more recent (and most reliable) studies you would see that I am right. You have not done this. You should be quiet.

Quote:
Are you really sure about that? What You Should Know About Soft Drinks. Maybe you should stop being so naive. ^_~

I know well enough just what kind of crap is in my drink, as well as the listed (last time I checked, 54) different side effects from over drinking it ^_^'

Quote:
You have not done this. You should be quiet.
Why? Last time I checked this thread was an open debate on the possitives and negatives of the drugs, and OPEN to discussion.
I also never said I'd done this, in fact, where I said "I don't believe I'd honestly be able to say it does or doesn't to either. I've never tried it, nor do I intend to." would be sufficient to point out that I don't have the knowledge to accurately judge it's effects.
If that wasn't enough, then surely "The reality is, that people may still get valid and usable information out of those websites, or hell... DOING A GOOGLE, and finding those within the first page." would be enough for anybody to realise I don't know jack shit about drugs. I don't pretend to.

---

Edit, I just realised, I have taken anabolic steroids before, though for a very brief period, and haven't ever gone back to them. I also know, that in short controlled periods, they can be helpful, and side effects of some can be minimal and not perminant. SO THAT SAID... MDMA probably can be taken safely, if controlled, and the user is responsible. But then they're also very different drugs.

Monkey, I'm definantly not disagreeing with you there. My personal opinion is that I don't want to put anything in my body along those lines. The experience I've had with drugs (listed above) is limited to that, and a glass of red wine once or twice a year at dinner with a salad. So I welcome people who have a deeper knowledge of subject.

Quote from Hitokiri Kensuke:

'and a glass of red wine once or twice a year at dinner with a salad.

See, you really should have a crisp white with salad.

There; I said it. :D

I usually have a salad with a beef based pasta dish, or chicken Cajun, with a rish sauce. I find a nice Shiraz accentuates the flavour. ^_^

Yeah, sorry Hitokiri that last post of mine made me look like a tard I apologise :). Steroids!? Wow, I just had a knee-jerk reaction and wanted to say, "LOL YOU DID STEROIDS YOUR DUMB LOL", but then I realised that this whole thread I've been trying to get people to see that knee-jerk reactions aren't always right, so I think I'll admit i know sweet f all about steriods and be quiet :). But have you used creatin? I was about to start using it a while ago when I was on a ketosis based weight gain diet but couldn't figure out whether it was worth it or not. Everyone I spoke to had a different opinion, just wondering if you knew anything about it.

Like any mass suppliment, it only works if you do the work. The misconception that steroids are a gain mass, with no work is a myth. Like anything, it'll end up working against you if you're slack with it. When on them, it's recommended you're in a serious weight gain phase, where you'll be pushing yourself, though some steroids require very strict programs where there's sometimes on and off.

To put it mildly, Steroids are basically different forms of testosterone supliments... Testosterone is what makes men muscley, and women not so. It's not necessary for muscle building, but it makes it damn easier to hold it and build it (Testosterone that is, not steroids).

I honestly don't know much about anything with steroids, I did a course with a few friends, partly to compare, and partly to gain strength, I pulled out early, as the second type of drug began having an effect on my skin, and I didn't like it generally. I've not touched it since.

As for Creatine, I don't know much about it myself, aside from it being an Amino Acid (building blocks for protein), and protein is what you need for muscle. that said, I honestly believe that if you're trying to gain mass/muscle, you're far better off having a decent size amount of chicken after a good session, and a protein shake before. Creatine is more for the energy.

Righto, learning something new all the time :D

i wouldnt mind trying absynthe...... neone know how to get it?

Bearing in mind it's not a hallucinogenic, or even particularly pleasant to drink.

Quote from Hitokiri Kensuke:

As for Creatine, I don't know much about it myself, aside from it being an Amino Acid (building blocks for protein) ... Creatine is more for the energy.

Actually, it's related to how cells in the muscle power themselves. Creatine is one of the energy sources a muscle turns to as it runs down internal stores after about 10-20 seconds. The idea of supplementing with creatine is that one can push that much harder at the gym.

For muscle growth, you need protein. Whey protein is cheap, easily available, and quickly digested.

Quote from uber tard:
But have you used creatin? I was about to start using it a while ago when I was on a ketosis based weight gain diet but couldn't figure out whether it was worth it or not. Everyone I spoke to had a different opinion, just wondering if you knew anything about it.

I used creatine a few years back for about nine months or so, for a job application that i was going through at the time (its a long story). More specifically one of those creatine/protein mixes you can buy from health shops, I think I used 'Celltech.'

This stuff will turn you into the incredible hulk if you get your gym routine right. Its perfect for putting on muscle bulk, but if you dont exercise enough (and I mean heaps if you are taking the recommended amount) your gut will get big too. Plus muscle definition was hard to get too, with so much bulk increase.

Quote from K_I_Z_A:
i wouldnt mind trying absynthe...... neone know how to get it?
Europe.
Was looking for info on it the other day, Ebay has it, but im unsure on if they will let it into the contry with no probs.

uhm, you can buy absinthe in darwin, over the counter. i know someone who goes through a bloody bottle every weekend