John Howards' Australia

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pm-refuses-to-use-racist-tag/2005/12/12/1134235985480.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17538160-37435,00.html

Sorry OD - genuine question here, not antagonising. I don't get the point - how is the Cronulla incident "John Howard's Australia?"

Haha, what in the crap? I'm with Xaine plz explain (<-- lololol that rhymes)

He operates using fear to get his agenda across. This is what happens as a result.

Seems a few others agree...

Quote:

From: John
Comment: What is un-Australian? Australia's population has almost doubled since 1960, mostly by immigration. So what is Australian? Unfortunately, the violence in Sydney has many causes, however these have been stimulated by Prime Minister Howard's covert use of Illegal immigration and the scare of terrorism. Fear has become a staple of this Government's polices.

Quote:

From: Greg
Comment: It shows that stupidity doesn't base itself on race, culture, age or gender. It demonstrates that fear generates anger and anger generates violence. It proves that we're just as scared here in Australia as any other culture.

Quote:

From: Michael
Comment: This is absolutely disgusting. Anyone so stupid and ignorant to participate in racially-motivated violence does not deserve to touch our Australian flag. I will also say that this must be a by-product of the continual scare tactics used by the Howard Government to subdue and scare us into thinking we are all at risk of terrorism. Which the media takes hook, line and sinker.

Seriously OD,

how can this be Johnny's fault.

Anybody who thinks Australia isnt at risk of a Terror Threat is silly, he take precautions.

What happened at Cronulla is wankers being wankers. Not because of what John Howard has done with the Gov't

um, you can't honestly believe that's the root cause of the violence down there... It's been going on for decades..

And thats a pretty tenuous connection there at best anyway.

The media portrayed it as a racial fight, mainly against the lebanese.
The media also portrayed that this occurred due to Leb's bashing 'Aussies' at the beaches etc.

Personally, i dont really know what incited the angry mob at Cronulla.
However, when it comes to Terrorism in Australia, i've said before and i will say it again : 'Aussies' will not take that kind of shit. Provoke 'them' and they will bite back twice as hard.

if its been going on for decades then how is it howards fault?
at least he is doing somthing, all anyone else can do is complain.

Quote from Unseen:

Anybody who thinks Australia isnt at risk of a Terror Threat is silly, he take precautions.

i totally agree

Quote from Milenko:
Personally, i dont really know what incited the angry mob at Cronulla.

It's interesting when you get the whole story. I was in Sydney at the time the original incident happened, and was told the full story by one of my workmates who lives in Cronulla.

There has always been a problem of Lebanese teenagers prowling the beach, mouthing off crap. There has also been a problem of lifesavers who patrol the beaches who are a little bit full of themselves.

What happened is that the lifesavers approached the lebanese crowd who proceeded to tell the lifesavers, "What are you doing on our beaches?"

The lifesavers replied, "Saving wankers like you who can't swim." So the lebanese teenagers proceeded to belt the living shit out of the lifesavers.

This was then seized upon as a "wogs vs Aussie" brawl, with the Aussie population of Cronulla basically saying, "Enough is enough."

Unfortunately, it turned out the way it did. Never was this touted as an "anti-terrorist" thing - it was always, at the heart of it, a community sick of thugs carrying on the way they do - regardless of race. Sadly a lot of people (most of them media) have turned it into a racist thing.

As a side note, the bashing happened on Wednesday. On Thursday, I got back to the hotel after work, and my wife (who doesn't read papers or watch the news) SMSed me to say she had gone down to Cronulla beach for the evening - would I like to join her!!

She returned that night astounded at how many police were on the beach, and wondering what all the helicopters were for. Needless to say, we didn't go back there.

haven't read most of the stuff here but i'll keep my opinion short.

the behaviour of the wogs at cronulla is nothing of john howards fault. they're purely egotistical up themselves sort of wankers who own the place, you get them everywhere, particularly sydney, canberra included.

on that note too, i think it's just as bad of the redneck aussies turning up and causing mischief, ie the guys who smashed in the ambulance.

I used to go to cronulla beach ..

never expierenced anything like this .. Used to catch the train and all..

meh this would of started in the past 8 years or so.

Came accross this pic..
[Image: http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3950/owned6dp.jpg]
a leb at cronulla beach

EDIT : Quote:
As the unrest spread overnight, 25 people - including two ambulance officers - had been injured, about 40 cars vandalised and an Australian flag burned.
Ok now 2 things in that line piss me off.. People who are trying to save other peoples lifes weather they are saving a friends life or a life of someone you hate SHOULD not be targeted at all.. They are there helping people..
And to burn the Australia flag.. Shit now if i saw that i would hang my head in shame for the person/people who did it.. If you dont like Australia get the **** out.. Dont go burning our Flag on Our Country.. The should be a law against that so the ****er can be shot..

Doesn't that just make you proud to be an Aussie....:roll:

I seriously doubt the ambo's were directly targeted. Let's not forget the media's ability to exaggerate. I would say the ambo's were trying to get through the mob to get to someone who had just been glassed or something and were unlucky enough to have gotten trodden on/squished/knocked over etc.
I agree wholeheartedly with your point Matt - medics etc should be neutral and so on...but I would say they were accidentally injured and not targeted.

:o They are brining out Police dogs now

http://speedy.akadns.info/streams/8000/sydneypolice.wax

EDIT.. This is a link to the Sydney police radio....

It should be pointed out that this occured in the Sutherland shire. Anyone who knows anything about that area will know this is typical of shirites. Like my dad often jokes, the only ethnics in the area are people who own restaurants and similar businesses. Its like they have gaurds posted on teh spit bridge (main entrance to the shire) and they turn away everyone who isnt white.

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87313&start=0

Linkies.. 38 pages in under 24 hours :\

Quote from JugV2:
I seriously doubt the ambo's were directly targeted. Let's not forget the media's ability to exaggerate. targeted.

There was footage on the news tonight of people throwing shit AT the ambulance. This sort of behaviour makes me feel sick, especially when they are singing the praise of being Australian whilst they are doing it. Topping it all off we have good ol' Johny telling us there is no underlying racism...careful John if you play with it too much it'll fall off.

i use to live in sydney and all i can say is they bloody deserve what they got i've had alotta dealings with them and all i can say if i was still there "i would join in"

im not normally racist but they really had it coming to them

Quote from Unseen:
I used to go to cronulla beach ..

never expierenced anything like this .. Used to catch the train and all..

meh this would of started in the past 8 years or so.

Nah, it's seriously been going on for decades. The bra boys have been fighting outsiders for ages. There was a massive media beat-up about it back then too, it was the "rockies" vs. the locals back then. Sometime in the 70s if I remember correctly (which I probably don't).

Xaine is right, it's not about race its more about gangs acting like thugs. The problem is alot of the leb gangs use race to incite violence. I've heard about lebs gang assaulting women at the beach because they are wearing bikinis. The lebs call them sluts for showing skin and abuse them. Any bystander who trys to help the girls then gets gangbashed. Acting like a racist mob isn't the way to go about solving the problem but I can see why the locals are angry.

Very interesting article on the rise of lebanese gangs by a Senior Police Detective.

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

The lebanese gang situation is far more serious than most of us realise.

The author of that article, Tim Priest just got a run in the Australian, linky:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17546003%255E7583,00.html

[Image: http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4237/gtanulla4xy.jpg]

lol thats awesome, id probably play it too.

I agree, it's always been like that in the Sydney though. People will have their little spats about certain areas being 'racial' areas.

30 years ago, they were complaining about the italian suburbs.
20 years ago, they were complaining about the greek suburbs.
10 years ago, they were complaining about the chinese/asian population.
Now, they're complaining about the lebanese.

So they like to congregate in one area and do their own thing, big deal. If I was living overseas, I know I'd be prefering to live among english speaking citizens with similar habits and daily rituals to my own. As long as they're not breaking the law, I don't see the problem. For a country that prides itself on being a multi-cultural society, we sure seem quick to jump on the bash-the-wog bandwagon.

the greeks didnt like the trojans, the british didnt like the german's, the japanese didnt like the americans and we dont like lebo's...

its not like its much different, but i thought that aussies were a little more tolerant, or at least take care of it in a quiet manner.

so you are right doy, but you have to remember human nature, to repell the weak and dislike the different. it pops up now and then.

Riots don't 'just' happen.

Gee next weekends forecast is clear weather, hey i know lets go start a riot.
The problem has been years in the making. Unfortunately the 'aussie' side has escalated the issue now. I hope if anything good is to come out of it, it's that the issue is now not swept under the carpet and the current government and beurocrats has the balls to fix what they have been ignoring for so long. Frankly i don't think Howard really cares, he'll serve his term and then retire very comfortably courtesy of us, and let the next incumbent handle this nightmare.

This situation has to be stopped now or it will poison all of Australia. I still remember speaking to an American couple about 2 years ago on a traffic matter ( No ticket issued, caution issued and road rules explained), about how this Country reminded them of the US 20 years ago.

America 30 odd years ago, race riots.

Do we want this, I think not. This is OZ. We are a happy land.

Do you really want to have to defend yourself and house each night from what is going on in NSW ATM.

TEXT, EMAIL, RING.

It has to stop.

My 5 dollars worth.

Quote from doyen:
I agree, it's always been like that in the Sydney though. People will have their little spats about certain areas being 'racial' areas.

30 years ago, they were complaining about the italian suburbs.
20 years ago, they were complaining about the greek suburbs.
10 years ago, they were complaining about the chinese/asian population.
Now, they're complaining about the lebanese.

So they like to congregate in one area and do their own thing, big deal. If I was living overseas, I know I'd be prefering to live among english speaking citizens with similar habits and daily rituals to my own. As long as they're not breaking the law, I don't see the problem. For a country that prides itself on being a multi-cultural society, we sure seem quick to jump on the bash-the-wog bandwagon.
exactly what issue are you acknowledging here? this has obviously been going on for years with the lebanese causing trouble in their groups and you say the aussies are QUICK to jump on the bandwagon? jesus christ, it's been happening for decades without assistance from the law, so the people took it upon themselves to fight back. had to happen, gangbashings are cowardly but due to those thugs being in droves the only way to fight back was with numbers. the lebanese started this shitstorm and now when the australians fight back all of a sudden it becomes racial and pacifists immediately try to say it wasn't the midde easterners fault, reversing the blame onto the aussies.

i'm definately no racist but i am sick of white people not standing up for each other and being labelled racists when we are one of the most multi-cultural lands in the world. also, why didn't the lebanese go the beaches last night instead of the suburbs? seems cowardly to me as the aussies headed straight to the source of the problem and not just another vacant area to claim. cowards.

just a few things to think about. /2cents

Quote from SiK:
this has obviously been going on for years with the lebanese causing trouble in their groups
no offence, but it's exactly THAT kind of rambling mis-informed bullshit that I was talking about.
have you ever lived in the southern shire? speaking from personal experience are we? it's hardly the lebanese that are the ONLY ones wandering around in groups, giving people lip or causing trouble.

hell, why stop with the shire? how about liechardt? redfern? kings cross? auburn?
do we wanna start sticking socio-demographic labels on the people that live there too, just because they hang around in groups?

the problem ISN'T that they're lebanese. the problem is that SOME of these people are breaking the law, or distrupting the peace with no regard for their fellow man. hopefully now that the public and media's eye is focused on the situation, those people will get treated for what they are. criminals.

Quote from SiK:
exactly what issue are you acknowledging here? this has obviously been going on for years with the lebanese causing trouble in their groups and you say the aussies are QUICK to jump on the bandwagon? jesus christ, it's been happening for decades without assistance from the law, so the people took it upon themselves to fight back. had to happen, gangbashings are cowardly but due to those thugs being in droves the only way to fight back was with numbers. the lebanese started this shitstorm and now when the australians fight back all of a sudden it becomes racial and pacifists immediately try to say it wasn't the midde easterners fault, reversing the blame onto the aussies.

i'm definately no racist but i am sick of white people not standing up for each other and being labelled racists when we are one of the most multi-cultural lands in the world. also, why didn't the lebanese go the beaches last night instead of the suburbs? seems cowardly to me as the aussies headed straight to the source of the problem and not just another vacant area to claim. cowards.

just a few things to think about. /2cents

It was hardly "fighting back" as you so nicely put it. It was an organised hate crime, and I know that sounds ugly but might as well call a spade a spade. When there are people sending txt messages saying come down to the beach for bash a wog day this is not fighting back in any sense of the phrase.

You say you are not a racist yet you are quick to clearly define that you are, "sick of WHITE people not standing up for each other". You then said, " the aussies headed straight to the source..." anyone involved in this does not deserve to be recognised as a decent human being let alone an "aussie".

the word racist is bandied about far too willy nilly these days.

^^ This is true but there are varying degrees of racial intollerance. Just to clarify I was not calling Sik a racist in my previous post.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any differentiation made between the Christian and Muslim lebanese. Christian Lebs outnumber the Muslims from what I recall, and I would expect a minority of the lebs involved in perpetuating the violence to be Christians.

I agree with John Howard re the underlying racism in Australia in that it's just not there. I don't believe it is.

Sure there are racist Australians, and there are a lot of them. Hell, I work with most of them, and their comments honestly make me feel sick... But you wouldn't find them beating up in a mob riot.

The people who are rioting, are drunken idiots, the of course the gangs are stupid as well.

As for people saying they'd join in, you're showing your level of maturity quite clearly.

I personally think that the police need to move in with full task force gear, put a curfew down, and beat the shit out of anybody who dares to try and be a smart ass.

Im a white man i must be (RACIST) rolls eyes

Quote from paladin:
the word racist is bandied about far too willy nilly these days.

I agree.

If X ethnicity targets A ethnicity, they are loudly labelled racists.

If X ethnicity targets A, B and C ethnicity, you hardly hear the racist label.

My solution is to hate ALL people, can't call you racist when you hate everybody.:p :p
PS If you do this you should wear black clothing.

what, are you trying to say im black or something?

HUHUHUHUHUH?

yeah...who doesnt love a racial disscussion these days?

Quote from doyen:
no offence, but it's exactly THAT kind of rambling mis-informed bullshit that I was talking about.
have you ever lived in the southern shire? speaking from personal experience are we? it's hardly the lebanese that are the ONLY ones wandering around in groups, giving people lip or causing trouble.

hell, why stop with the shire? how about liechardt? redfern? kings cross? auburn?
do we wanna start sticking socio-demographic labels on the people that live there too, just because they hang around in groups?

the problem ISN'T that they're lebanese. the problem is that SOME of these people are breaking the law, or distrupting the peace with no regard for their fellow man. hopefully now that the public and media's eye is focused on the situation, those people will get treated for what they are. criminals.
so the countless amount of people interviewed that LIVE in cronulla are all wrong are they? it's also not just caucasions, it's also asians, ethnics, all sorts of minorities. they all described the initial offenders at cronulla as being of middle-eastern appearance. that is the issue being discussed here. not redfern, not wherever else, ok?

Quote from SiK:
so the countless amount of people interviewed that LIVE in cronulla are all wrong are they? it's also not just caucasions, it's also asians, ethnics, all sorts of minorities. they all described the initial offenders at cronulla as being of middle-eastern appearance. that is the issue being discussed here. not redfern, not wherever else, ok?
there's two problems here.
a) the media rarely interviews the people that disagree with their preferred standpoint. meaning, you usually get a portion of the story, not all of it.
b) you're ignoring the fact that both sides of that confrontation had people who WEREN'T from those 'minority' groups, aswell - which was also televised.

the gangs that cause this shit aren't all one nationality. yes, there's lebanese who are in those gangs, I'm not disputing that. but guess what?
cronulla is largely populated by lebanese. they live there. by sheer volume of people alone, it's little wonder that there will be lebanese causing trouble somewhere, in a largely lebanese area. do the math.

Quote from doyen:
a) the media rarely interviews the people that disagree with their preferred standpoint. meaning, you usually get a portion of the story, not all of it.
from what i watched, the event that got the most coverage was the australian rally with them attacking police, middle easterners, etc. go figure.

Quote from doyen:

the gangs that cause this shit aren't all one nationality. yes, there's lebanese who are in those gangs, I'm not disputing that. but guess what?
cronulla is largely populated by lebanese. they live there. by sheer volume of people alone, it's little wonder that there will be lebanese causing trouble somewhere, in a largely lebanese area. do the math.
exactly my point -> lebanese were the majority of the people that STARTED the trouble in cronulla (which is also largely populated by other nationalities). if not for them causing trouble and starting this dispute we would not be here today. the problem is that they've been allowed to do this for years, now that there's retribution it's been labelled as a racial attack (even though maybe not 100% of the 'australian' mob were caucasian.

so lebs served aussies.
then aussies served lebs.

it's on.

And it will stop when?

3 die.

27 die.

5 police die, 4 ambos die and 7 fire officers die.

Or 1 Polly get his/her car smashed.

Or they get some brains and stop it now...

mob violence=wrongness

Just wondering if anyone read either of the articles I posted, they're good reads written by a senior detective in the NSW police.

Yeah I did. I thought they were very interesting, most definitely a look at the other, less-touted side of the story. A precursor to the madness ensconsing NSW's multicultural suburbs at the moment.

christ my head hurts from the stupidity of some of the responses here. Firstly, if you generalise according to race, you are - by definition - being racist. Yes that's right window-lickers, you are distinguishing according to race, and are therefore being racist in one form or another. whether or not this is positive or negative is irrelevant; you are drawing conclusions based on an individual's ethnicity.

Quote:
if not for them causing trouble and starting this dispute we would not be here today. the problem is that they've been allowed to do this for years, now that there's retribution it's been labelled as a racial attack (even though maybe not 100% of the 'australian' mob were caucasian.

so why is it that only one ethnic group was singled out in the attack? you're insinuating that the lebanese are the root of all problems in cronulla? if they were really out to take the beach back or whatever thin veil they pinned over their true motives, shouldn't they have targetted all troublemakers? work that neuron there and it might eventually dawn on you that by targetting a single ethnicity for a perceived wrong you are only perpetuating the problem. You are demonstrating massive prejudice by assigning particular negative attitudes, characteristics and behaviours on a racial demographic. expect them to return the favour. face facts: the riots were racist, and mouth-breathers like you are jumping on the bandwagon, and by association are also being racist.

OK, the Lebanese are NOT the main problem/only problem in Cronulla. However, it was a Lebanese gang who instigated all this. How is it being racist saying that a Lebanese gang started this crap, when in fact a gang of lebanese people DID. I'm not saying all Lebanese started it, I'm not saying it's ONLY lebanese, I'm simply saying in this instance, where it did erupt, it was a lebanese gang. They could have been Aussie or Greek or bloody Uzbekistani for all I care.

Quote from Illusions:
words
so i'm not allowed to call the lebanese troublemakers lebanese? this is the sugercoated bullshit that people like you use when they are too afraid to point the finger at the root of the problem. once again, we would not be in this mess if not for that group of lebanese thugs.

oh and i am not a racist, you can ask my three best friends who happen to be greek, asian and half-cast aboriginal.

racist by definition is the belief that your own race to be superior than another. i do not believe this here, i just made a judgement on the cowardly actions of others. stereotypes are earned. just the way life is...

then judge people by their actions and not their race. the fact that they are lebanese has nothing to do with them being 'troublemakers', yet people get into the habit of generalising an entire race according to the behaviour of a few. just because you aren't overtly racist doesn't mean you aren't displaying racist sentiment by condoning the actions of the riots. this sugar coated bullshit is called thinking, and looking at your posts it's not something you're used to. either grow a clue or go back to flipping burgers.

What are you?
Some kind of nazi jew lizard?

Quote from Illusions:
then judge people by their actions and not their race. the fact that they are lebanese has nothing to do with them being 'troublemakers', yet people get into the habit of generalising an entire race according to the behaviour of a few. just because you aren't overtly racist doesn't mean you aren't displaying racist sentiment by condoning the actions of the riots. this sugar coated bullshit is called thinking, and looking at your posts it's not something you're used to. either grow a clue or go back to flipping burgers.

Huzah Sean haven't seen the likes of you in a long time.

howdy man :). I'll give you a call tonight, it's been a while :)

You didnt catch up at the latest Power meeting?

Quote from Illusions:
then judge people by their actions and not their race. the fact that they are lebanese has nothing to do with them being 'troublemakers', yet people get into the habit of generalising an entire race according to the behaviour of a few. just because you aren't overtly racist doesn't mean you aren't displaying racist sentiment by condoning the actions of the riots. this sugar coated bullshit is called thinking, and looking at your posts it's not something you're used to. either grow a clue or go back to flipping burgers.
i'm not generalising the race. the lebanese as a whole do not condone this i'm sure and are not responsiblefor these hooligans but, the people who started this dispute are of lebanese descent and that is what i will continue to call them (lebanese). a spade is a spade no matter what you call it and if they continue the hate crimes then they will continue to be hated by other races (i'm not saying this is me but that's the harsh reality). only cowards group together against others and i'm sorry but if you and a bunch of your mates who are of the same race group up against another then it will be labelled racial. people were getting sick of it and retaliated, it happens in the real world. read -> comprehend -> post. mmm burgers are tasty

Quote from Milenko:
You didnt catch up at the latest Power meeting?

we only talked about the Revolution (TM), so it wasn't much of a catch up :)

lol, you just got into my 'groovy' books.
Did my best to provoke and you just wouldnt bite :p

Quote from Illusions:
christ my head hurts from the stupidity of some of the responses here. Firstly, if you generalise according to race, you are - by definition - being racist.

Just a nitpick. Racism means that you consider entire races to be inferior or superior to one another. It is not racism to propose that there are races. It is racist to decide that one is naturally violent, or stupid etc etc.

Racism is, essentially, a theory. It precedes empirical evidence - and such evidence as may exist is hotly contested.

Pointing out the evidence in a case may be in order to advance a racist cause, but it does not prove that one is a racist. One may merely be remarking, "Abos, was it?" or "I heard it was a pack of rabid Hellholistanis" without passing judgement on those persons.

I realise that this is a fine distinction which undermines your fire-breathing leftist position, but then lefties have a fairly spotty history when it comes to facing facts.

racism: a. The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race. b. Racialism <----- (what you are actually referring to)

Oxford English Dictionary

you don't have to assume racial superiority in order to be racist. By assigning characteristics, even as arbitrary as 'troublemaker', you are being racist.

I'd answer your highschool debating trick in referring to the OED, however:

1. The definitive dictionary for Australian English is the Macquarie Dictionary; and
2. Neither dictionary is available online to non-subscribers.

Should I accept your definition, a new problem arises in your argument. Namely, that it's too broad. As soon as I say "he looks like a crook" or "she has nice knockers", they could be spun into racism by anyone for any purpose.

This is why I prefer the narrower definition - it separates coincidence from bigotry.

so...by your thinking....if she is made of the same material as the Macquarie...and has big knockers...she is therefore...
A WIIIIIIITCH!!!!!
BURN HER!!!!
:p

sorry, couldn't help it.

Quote from El Presidente:
I was owned by birth and this is my best attempt at wit:

1. Irrelevant. I just didn't want to be seen with my dick hanging out.
2. Google-warrior skillz that demonstrate my profound intellectual abilities.

A paragraph demonstrating that I completely missed the point of what was said. I'll ignore the fact that for something to be 'racist' it has to be judged on the basis of race as the primary defining factor.

I prefer the narrow definition because I have a narrow mind. Validate me please.

Your petty mind games bore me.

I sense a 4000 word article by El Pres.
And for once, im looking forward to reading it :)

Quote from JugV2:
so...by your thinking....if she is made of the same material as the Macquarie...and has big knockers...she is therefore...
A WIIIIIIITCH!!!!!
BURN HER!!!!
:p

sorry, couldn't help it.

Only if she floats in water...like wood...or a duck, or something.

(Any Monty Python fans care to help me out?)

Oh, and what Milenko said.

Really, Illusions, you can do far better than poke your tongue out and say, "nyah", can't you? I mean, that's basically what you've done above - "I don't want to argue the facts, so I'm going to assume an air of superiority in the hopes that nobody can see through me"?

That's what the racism card is xaine, an argument people throw up and expect it to grant them the unassailable moral high ground.

saying lebanese thugs is no different than saying blue cars.

Quote from paladin:
That's what the racism card is xaine, an argument people throw up and expect it to grant them the unassailable moral high ground.

saying lebanese thugs is no different than saying blue cars.

eh?

I always thought Racism describes a specific form of discrimination, which is against different types of race.

Once you deviante from race, you enter other forms of discrimination, like sexism, agism, fattism, ablism, cronyism and even heterosexism.

But yeah, Illusions, you really didn't add to your arguement, only just resorted to taunts.

i basically hate all 'isms', they are bandied about far too willy nilly.

quite frankly I don't know why he argued the point when he said the exact same thing I was saying.

He said: It is racist to decide that one is naturally violent, or stupid etc etc

Which is the same as saying: racism: a. The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race.

Which is what I was trying to convey when I said: if you generalise according to race, you are - by definition - being racist.

If race is the primary determinant by which you are judging an individual, you are being racist. It is not racist to say "she has big knockers," but it is racist to say "lebs have big knockers." whether or not this is intended positively or negatively is irrelevant. People claimed that the cronulla riots were not racist, and my issue was that the 'protestors' targetted a particular ethnic group, which is - by definition - racist. They made a generalised assumption based on race, and guess what we call this? that's right, racism.

The man was arguing for the sake of it, and I don't have the time or the patience.

Quote from Xaine:
Only if she floats in water...like wood...or a duck, or something.

(Any Monty Python fans care to help me out?)

really small rocks?
i was thinking the same thing when i read his post hehe

Quote from Illusions:

If race is the primary determinant by which you are judging an individual, you are being racist. It is not racist to say "she has big knockers," but it is racist to say "lebs have big knockers." whether or not this is intended positively or negatively is irrelevant. People claimed that the cronulla riots were not racist, and my issue was that the 'protestors' targetted a particular ethnic group, which is - by definition - racist. They made a generalised assumption based on race, and guess what we call this? that's right, racism.

read the ****ing post dipshit. i called the gang lebanese because that is what they are. i made no generalisation of a whole race, as stated in my previous posts. jesus.

Calling a gang of lebanese people a lebanese gang is racist though...
Just like calling an aboriginal black is racist...

Edit: Sarcasm for people lacking sarcasm radars.

But if Aboriginals made a gang it would be ok to call them an 'Aboriginal gang'... I mean think about it, that's what it is. It's when you start saying it like a 'gang of blacks' that it starts to get a bit over the line :p

Btw i'm aboriginal and I wasn't trying to offend any person, organisation or race :p (Race is such a touchy subject)

[QUOTE=SiK]read the ****ing post dipshit. i called the gang lebanese because that is what they are. i made no generalisation of a whole race, as stated in my previous posts. jesus.[/QUOTE]

For the retarded:

[Quote="ME"][b][u]my issue[/b] was that the 'protestors' targetted a particular ethnic group, which is - by definition - racist.[/u] They made a generalised assumption based on race, and guess what we call this? that's right, racism.[/Quote]

a point which you've still failed to address. I also flamed you unnecessarily and called you a racist and for that I apologise... :)

Quote from Milenko:
I sense a 4000 word article by El Pres.
And for once, im looking forward to reading it :)

It's such a shame that we're just splitting hairs and doing the angels-on-a-hairpin thing, because if this was about economics, you'd need to fetch your reading glasses.

As I see the argument:

Illusions: if you observe that person X is of race Y and has personal qualities Z, you're a racist.
El Presidente: if you observe that person X is of race Y and has personal qualities Z because of Y, you're a racist.

Essentially, I am arguing that people being labelled racist deserve to be considered innocent of this most heinous crime until proven guilty. Find a statement of the form "those lebs are criminals" or "them blacks are lazy" and you've found a racist; but statements of the form "the gang of lebanese criminals" and "that pack of long grassers" do not prove racist intent. This is one of those P => Q, P' !=> Q things I remember only dimly from logic classes.

Oh, and the "resorting to taunts" quip after the quote rewrite. Bit of an own goal, wasn't it?

Quote from Illusions:
For the retarded:

a point which you've still failed to address. I also flamed you unnecessarily and called you a racist and for that I apologise... :)
what have i failed to address? the people who attacked the lebanese were racists? they were, there you go.

*note to self.
don't **** with el presidente. he knows his shit