THE Australian soldier who died in Iraq was not cleaning his pistol at the time he was killed as has been reported, Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said today. The body of Private Jake Kovco is due to be given a service in Gippsland with full military honours, but the coffin that arrived in Melbourne this morning contained the wrong body. It has been widely reported that the 25-year-old private accidentally shot himself while cleaning his weapon in Baghdad on Friday. But Dr Nelson today said the reports were incorrect. "The family's actually quite distressed because the reports are that he was cleaning his weapon," the minister told Macquarie radio. "He wasn't in fact cleaning his weapon. "It was near him in his vicinity and he made some kind of movement which suggests that it discharged. "There was obviously a live round in it which there should not have been and that's as much as I should probably say at the moment."
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Thats the latest I have read on the report.
Now I know for a fact, that a gun can go off by being dropped unless it is Really really under maintained, so accidental drop hit the floor off went a round is out of the books.
As far as "Cleaning" and shot himself goes, when cleaning a pistol never, do you point it at yourself.
So what really happened? Im thinking suicide, or russian roulette with mates or something stupid like that.
Do I see him as a hero? not really, as I cant understand how somebody can Accidently shoot themselves in a barracks, under no stress at the time of the inncident. by stress I mean, it would be R&R time so he wouldnt have to be thinking of going on patrols or whatever.
If the pistol story is correct..if...then the pistol model he uses after cleaning has to have the magazine inserted to test the trigger. I mean cleaning your gun your not going to miss one in the pipe.
Something does seem strange about this but its sad either way.
This mornings developments are even sadder, good on the widow for waking Howard up and giving him an earful
It's also worth noting that Unseen mentions Russian Roulette. I would find it extremely unlikely that Australian troops are using revolvers; these are the only type of handgun able to be used for Roulette. IMO it's safe to rule out that he and some mates may have been playing Russian Roulette.
when cleaning your weapon you clean the barrel by putting a cleaner down it, and we are trained to look down the barrel to see if there is any other obstructions, why there was a live round in the chamber, i dont know, but if your cleaning your weapon with live rounds in it, then your an idiot.
Quote from shifty: when cleaning your weapon you clean the barrel by putting a cleaner down it, and we are trained to look down the barrel to see if there is any other obstructions, why there was a live round in the chamber, i dont know, but if your cleaning your weapon with live rounds in it, then your an idiot.
OK process.
1) REMOVE THE MAGAZINE
2) PULL BACK THE SLIDE ..
As of there, there can NO WAY be a round in the chamber. So being a) a sniper b) a regular soldier who does this EVERYDAY, something seems wrong to me.
Australia issue pistol is the 9mm Browning Semi Automatic Pistol.
So yeah something is wrong, im just not sure what it is.
And when you clean the barrel it is when the pistol is in 4 pieces.
Look, its exactly the same as when my housemate claims that i was caught masturbating. I was cleaning it and it went off. Pure and simple, end of discussion!
Quote from Milenko: Look, its exactly the same as when my housemate claims that i was caught masturbating. I was cleaning it and it went off. Pure and simple, end of discussion!
Whilst I like your theroy, it doesnt quite work.
I mean with your Penis, you cant exactly "unload it" before the "cleaning" process begins.
However now that they are saying he wasnt Cleaning his service pistol, and that it was "away" from him. I was thinking maybe it fell on the ground and went off, again this would be very very unlikely.
Im just raising the debate, I feel bad for the family I really do. However some truth would be good too.
Also during dads 6mnths in Iraq. 9 UnAuthorised Discharges, of weapons happened, so its not like this is a once off where a gun has gone off when it shouldnt have. just this one killed somebody.
Quote: And when you clean the barrel it is when the pistol is in 4 pieces.
Yes exactly, you shouldnt be cleaning any part of your weapon unless you have taken it apart, otherwise there is no point because you are not going to be able to clean the parts that you really need to, and if you dont clean those parts, like the trigger mechanisim, or the reciever, your weapon will seize up and will not fire. I am used to handling the AUS Styer, a piece of tuppaware but still the most accurate rifle in the world today, hence why australia invested in them. But if you dont take it apart when you clean it, you just cannot get the carbon out of the areas you need to.
Quote: I mean even the styr. First step Remove the magazine, second cock the weapon.
You cant take the barrel off the Styer unless you pull back and lock the receiver tab.
Also because the trigger mechanism is only protected by a soft plastic end on the butt of the rifle, a hard enough knock on the butt of the rifle can dislodge the trigger mechanism and cause the weapon to fire, but soldiers are trained to put the rifle down a certain way to avoid this. As for a pistol? ummm i think he killed himself.
Quote from toasthall: I heard on the radio that they loaded the wrong coffin in the plane in Iraq, so his coffin is still in Iraq and the PM got an earful from the widow Im sorry mrs ?????? but your husband cant be with us today. He missed the plane :)
On a serious note does anyone know if a balistics test has been done to prove that it came from his own firearm?
Look in all honesty who really gives a ****. The army is sure as hell not going to say it was suicide for the families sake - Insurance wont pay out, nor should they know it was suicide.
Let the guy rest in peace instead of trying to find out if he topped himself or it was part of some sinister plan.
Good on ya Kurt. I care that a soldier has died in the line of duty regardless of the circumstances. What i dont care is in fact how he died. Quote from Unseen:
Do I see him as a hero? not really, as I cant understand how somebody can Accidently shoot themselves in a barracks, under no stress at the time of the inncident. by stress I mean, it would be R&R time so he wouldnt have to be thinking of going on patrols or whatever.
At least he is ****ing in the Army, doing his duty, he's a hero for just that. You can't say he wasn't under stress even if you specifically refer to the stress of patrols or 'whatever'. How the hell would you know, you aren't his GP nor one of his mates. Nor am i for that fact. Saying the shit how you dont think he is a hero then speculating that his conduct as a soldier is at fault is just crap.
he was away from hom, in iraq ffs, if i was over there i would be pretty home sick, plus you dont know what kinda personal problems he had, maybe nobody liked him and everyone picked on him, full metal jacket anyone?
THE grieving mother of soldier Jake Kovco yesterday accused the Howard Government and the army of a cover-up, insisting her son was a weapons expert who was not holding his pistol when he was shot in the head.
Defence Minister Brendan Nelson yesterday also changed his account of how Private Kovco died and Defence Force chief Angus Houston was forced to deny the claims of a cover-up. The turmoil was compounded by the wrong casket being flown back to Australia, leaving Private Kovco's body in a mortuary in Kuwait. The bungle forced John Howard to tell the soldier's distraught family and friends he was "desperately sorry".
In an interview with The Australian, Private Kovco's emotional mother Judy said the latest version of events by Dr Nelson made no more sense than the first official version. "What did Jake do, put his head down level with the table so that it could shoot him in the head?" she said.
"My son did not shoot himself. We have said it from the start. He was so proficient with guns. He was their head sniper. A head sniper doesn't accidentally shoot himself.
"My husband has said from the start, 'No way, no way, no way, no way'."
Senior governmental sources said investigators had even been looking at whether the gun that fired belonged to Private Kovco, although the official line remained that it was his gun that discharged.
Defence officials have said there is no evidence of suicide or skylarking.
It is a requirement of soldiers to make sure there is no round ready for firing in a gun when in a barracks.
After initially saying Private Kovco had accidentally shot himself while cleaning his Browning pistol, Dr Nelson said yesterday: "He wasn't, in fact, cleaning his weapon." It now appeared the gun discharged while Private Kovco, 25, was "fiddling about" with other equipment.
hmmm, i know it would probably take a while to uncover the full events cause they would need to fly an investigation team over and then do all their CSI stuff *que CSI theme song* but this is just a bit concerning
The Prime Minister has denied claims by the mother of the Australian soldier killed in Iraq of a cover-up over her son's death.
Private Jake Kovco, 25, died in Baghdad on Friday.
It had been thought he had accidentally shot himself while cleaning his weapon but Defence Minister Brendan Nelson now says Private Kovco was not handling the gun at the time.
Dr Nelson's comments have angered Private Kovco's mother, Judy.
Prime Minister John Howard says there will be a full inquiry into the way the soldier died.
He has urged the family to wait for the results.
"I can give her an assurance there will be no cover-up," he said.
"There's never been any intention on the part of anybody to cover anything up, that's why we're having a full and open inquiry.
"It will take time. You can't get to the bottom of something like this within 24 hours ... there does have to be a coronial investigation." Body retrieved
The family's grief has been compounded by a mistake that saw the wrong body flown back to Australia.
The coffin that arrived in Melbourne from Kuwait yesterday contained another body.
Australia's ambassador to Kuwait, along with two Australian Defence Force soldiers, has now retrieved the correct body.
The coffin was draped with an Australian flag and the maroon beret of Private Kovco's unit had been placed on top as it was taken to a military plane to be flown home.
Being qualled in the 9m HP Browning, I can say that current pistols require that after cleaning and going through the final function test, that it is necessary to insert a magazine into the weapon to fire it and test the trigger action. Such safety mechanisms are being removed in the future. While in theory this test involves not having a round in the chamber (hence a full mag on isnt going to fire the weapon as it is cocked b4 the mag goes in)
It is not beyond the relms of doubt for a soldier to insert a loaded mag into the weapon to test this and accidently cock it if they were tired or distracted. However, Soliders are not taught to do this while looking into the barrel.
Me thinks one of his mates was cleaning the weapon and was carrying out the final function test and he accidently shot his mate.
Hmmm conflicting stories coming out of the Defence Dept what’s new? got to love there press release information machine working at full pace. Due to the Defence Forces privacy act they can disclose anything they like except the truth to the media or general public.
Weapon was accidentally discharged during cleaning was the 1st story, now they are stating that he wasn’t cleaning his weapon during the incident. Remember this toke place indoors so the weapon would have been unload & safety switch on. Isn’t the proper procedure when entering buildings that soldier must check all his weapons clear breach aim at the kitty litter trigger test then secure safety. Also he was highly trained which made it very unlikely that he didn’t follow safety procedures but I don’t know anything about the other two soldiers in the same room.
What ever the out come will be we won’t be given the full version of events. Remember the Defence forces need more people to join & there’s nothing worse than having bad PR when recruitment levels are very low at the moment.
But labeling him as a Hero is a bit reach “I’m with you on that one Unseen” Still he deserves respect as he was killed during active service & should receive full Military Honors my personal opinion.
Well I thought it can’t get any worse but nope, mix up wrong casket sent was like furthering insult to the grieving parents of the deceased soldier. Good news well sort of giving the circumstances the Government will personal see to it to get him home on the next chartered flight some little comfort to the family. Also the great man him self \ ex gentle bear \ former head of Australia's military, General Peter Cosgrove is looking into procedures which will minimize this cock up from happening again, at least some one is doing something proactive.
Probably some poor Digger will get in trouble when in fact, its the officers fault and the freakin officer is shafting the poor digger.
in the same way the politicians are washing their hands and blaming the military. What ever happened to people standing up and taking responsibility for what they have done.
<DIV id=storyBody>PRIVATE Jake Kovco was in his room alone and had just opened an email from his wife when he fatally shot himself in the temple with his own pistol, according to new reports which contradict the government's claims. Pte Kovco, 25, a member of an Australian army security detachment in Baghdad, died when he was accidentally shot with his own Browning 9mm pistol last Friday night. The Defence Department and the federal government initially said Pte Kovco was in a room with two other soldiers at the time of his death. But a source close to troops in Baghdad said Pte Kovco's two mates were in the next room and discovered him after the shot went off, contradicting that information, News Ltd newspapers reported today. Troops also revealed the father-of-two had been under enormous pressure and had opened an email from his wife Shelley just before he died from the single bullet wound to the temple from his own pistol, News Ltd said. A preliminary police investigation into the incident has been done but the details have not been released. The information adds weight to claims by Pte Kovco's mother Judy that the army was involved in a cover-up, something Prime Minister John Howard has denied. <DIV id=promoIslandRight>on error resume nextShockMode = ( IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.6")))if ( ShockMode
THE 9mm Browning "Hi-Power" is the standard-issue pistol of the Australian Army. If Private Jake Kovco, an elite army sniper and small-arms expert, was following standard operating procedures to clear his semi-automatic pistol, an accidental discharge would have been almost impossible. Serving and retired soldiers, including a former member of the Special Air Service Regiment, are unanimous in their view, Private Kovco was one of the best at his trade. "This guy was a sniper. He was a well-trained soldier. There is no way he would accidentally shoot himself while clearing his weapon unless he failed to follow procedures," said the former SAS soldier and Vietnam combat veteran. "The drill is, mag (magazine) off; cock, look in the breech, look in the barrel. "The weapon then cannot hurt you unless you bash someone over the head with it." But he said other factors could have contributed to a fatal shot. "In Vietnam we carried our weapons loaded and cocked with the safety off, but it was Vietnam and we were the SAS," the veteran said.
Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said Private Kovco, a member of the crack parachute battalion, was serving in the Baghdad-based security detachment operating with ASLAV armoured vehicles providing security for Australian diplomats and dignitaries. After first saying Private Kovco had accidentally shot himself while cleaning his Browning pistol, Dr Nelson now says the 25-year-old, just back from patrol, was shot while "fiddling about with other equipment".
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Key points are bolded, hmm gets more interesting.
I admit only reason this is interesting is the circumstances behind his death.
I truly wish I could say I am shocked and surprised by this greatest of military abominations in the last 3 decades.
But I'm not :(
Proving once again you only get what you pay for ! "Private Contracting" of the return of Australia's War Dead. It appears Australia simply doesn't want to pay for the appropriate level of service in this case. It's off to the "discount" section here. There's Anzac legacy and Australian Values for you !
We haven't had to return any service people home under this type of high profile service since Vietnam. Notwithstanding the other factors and the enormous grief caused to the family we couldn't get the return of our first deceased service person from the "war zone" anywhere near right !
My thoughts go out for the family and friends irrespective of the "circumstances" we no longer have a good solider who was prepared to put his money where his mouth is by doing what he believed in.
It is pertinent to remember that these fine people are not engaged in your "ordinary" 9 - 5 job and the very nature of the work they do on our behalf exposes them to considerable danger and dangerous situations regularly. As such they should without question be treated with our support, respect and dignity particularly in events like the above. As per the linked SMH article, "not treated like a piece of meat in the cargo hold".
Here it is from a special effects POV.. if you place a weapon to your own temple, the barrel will be in contact with the skin since you need to steady it to prevent the act of pulling the trigger from turning it away from you, upon firing the weapon, the bullet punches through the skin bone etc - the powder discharge from the weapon also enters the wound, being trapped against it in large part by the barrel of the gun, getting between the bone and skin causing a ballooning effect which you wont get if the weapon went off across the room (granted it wouldnt happen from a foot away either), that's a quick method of at least proving if he topped himself, since you arent going to hold a gun away from your scone when suiciding are you? risk blowing your eyeballs out instead. So at least they could quickly define/rule out whether or not he HAD shot himself.
lol OD I think Alan Ramsey taken the whole incident personally, but there's a lot of truth in his article. When Alan gets up the politicians he doesn't hold back doesn't he... :) I don't blame him for doing it politicians need a good thrashing. :)
My thoughts go out for the family and friends irrespective of the "circumstances" we've lost a good solider who was prepared to put his money where his mouth is by doing what he believed in.
he was obviously executed. im guessing it was a serious matter. hence why it was covered up. no point in wondering about "the truth" because we will never know.
if he was killed/captured by the enemy i see no reason why they wouldnt just say thats how he was killed, but he obvisouly did something extremely stupid.
and forget the "shot while cleaning" it never happend.
give the military a bit more credit, if they wanted the guy dead, i think they would be able to do it far less suspiciously then how this happened..... or maybe thats what they want you to think
give the military a bit more credit, if they wanted the guy dead, i think they would be able to do it far less suspiciously then how this happened..... or maybe thats what they want you to think Not the miliary. his best mate. His mate was obviously screwing his girl and now geets her all to himself. She collects insurance. win win for them.
You're allowed an opinion. Just not on these forums (anymore).
Theres a difference between a constructive poster who is a member of the community; and a person who uses each and every post to incite flames and attack peoples moral/ethic codes.
Theres also the repetitive Conspiracey theme to every second word out of your proverbial.
At first, sure, its fun and kinda thought provoking. But when every single post is infused with rhetoric and self righteousness, it gets very old, very fast. To the point where its flat-out ****en annoying.
Why don't we all just take a step back for a minute - in fairness to ZPC (or whatever the hell he's called) all that's happened since he's come into these forums is be attacked, often without any provocation at all.
Is this the spirit of GU/DGA?
*snicker**
ROFL
Sorry, couldn't hold it in any longer.
Piss off ZPC - until you can grow up and come out of your mother's basement, take a hint and go elsewhere.