the great Debate!! =-)

hello gamers hows its hangin, just would like to verify alittle information that me and RAYIA were debating about last night till 5:30 in the morning,
now all of u know im a L337 player and at CS (cough cough) and well i was wondering about cheats and what is classed as a cheat.... RAYIA seems to think that i cheat...

i find a cheat is something that makes your gaming more enhanced, and well we all know that aim bot and auto shootiong and other mods to increase your rate of fire and aiming a cheat, Rayia seems to think that my CS BLOODPACK which we all know of is a cheat, cuz of the different change in Cross hairs on the awp cuz instead of the origanal red dot its a cross, i find this not improving nothing in my gameplay or skill as a CS player he seems to think so, also the case of my skins are different to the origanal models my skins have nothing to do with how i can detect my models wether a CT is there or not... i got bored of the origanal so i changed them to better looking ones so i could enjoy CS onces again... sure if u have skins like CrAzY C and have red turbins on ya heads as T's and Blue as CT's sure it makes it clear its your enemy or a friendly, but what about aiming how does skins improve ya aimingit doesnt so i dont see in my opinion skins changing a cheat, i see it as a change in design thats all doesnt improve my gaming....

Now another topic me and Rayia talked about was the fact that is turning the gammer up a cheat or not, i dissagree of course cuz you aint tweaking the halflife at all its all hardware related, i use a program called Powerstrip which makes the gamer on ya screen bright not to bright to ruin all sence of direction just enough to have it looking good and not to dark... but enough to see in corners, Rayia seems to think it increases the way i play which i find not true cuz evn without powerstrip i could turn the gammer up on my monitor and still see things or change resolution to see better cuz some are darker than others, so powerstrip is no were near a mod is all hardwear related which makes it not a cheat =-) errrr

Now the final argument, Rayia seems to think that CS is a simulation of Real life is this true or Not is all im gonna say state your reasons to your answer, i say No it is NOWERE near a simulation to real life....

PREPARE TO BE TERMINATED

Nah nothing wrong with what you are doing Term.

I use locked down models and diff xhairs as well.

It IS considered a cheat if your UN-Zoomed Xhair has been changed tho.

Turning up your gamma is fine too.

Have a look at Gobs screen and youll be blinded :)

They are all but 'enhancements' :)

In big comps and probably at Evo 3 we will have rules etc default install only etc but for pub and LAN play go your hardest.

CS a simulation? not even slightly - you try strapping on the amount of guns, ammo and equipment and haring it around corners as fast as we all do playing CS - theres an element of realism, sure, but its not supposed to be completely realistic - the closest FPS I've seen for realism is Ghost Recon.

Changing skins and sprites cheating? I think not - if Rayia really thought CS was realistic, he would have the real crosshair sprites for the Aug and Sig, so right here he's busily conflicting himself :P Having diferent models and sprites can sometimes help you know which way to point your gun, but its not cheating. Also, would you really think there was such an industry behind HL in the way of model customisation if it was considered cheating by the majority of CS players?

Having the gamma turned up too bright is a little dodgy, I mean its fine upping it so you can see what your doing, but running it so bright that black looks like a soot covered snowman is excessive. The added kick is if you run it this high for too long you'll cook your monitor faster.

As far as it being a simulation of real life, you find me anyone who can jump with an AK47, and midjump headshot someone (or any gun for that matter), and I'll agree with Raiya on this point.

Otherwise, as most people are aware, it's only a game........

I remember in Quake TF there were the corners in 2fort4 that you could NOT see into even with highest gamma :)

So there are settings the map developers can use to stop gamma being used to dispel shadows (eeek 4th level spell must be ).

I know there were commands ppl could use to remove these shadows but they were cvars I think in the game and not gamma related. :)

a good player shouldnt need to "enhance" his gameplay

turn the gamma down and watch the so called experts fall !!

BAH

I mean seriously its a bloody skin/sprite for christ sake, i mean sure it may give you an edge in gameplay but I wouldnt go as far as saying they are cheats. I mean they do nothing to increase your aim or reaction time, you shouldn't be focused on "colour" anyway, focus more on "movement" of your enemy that way it wont matter what colour he/she is.
Well thats how I play anyway.

As for the gamma I can't really say much about this cos I never tried it, but Id say it wouldn't do that mcuh for you. What it just increases the gamma of the whole screen and not just a player. hell you could weat nightvision goggles and it's give you the same effect (just a little brighter :D )

And No its not anything like a real life simulation, I mean If it were so, youd be having the other team trying to make themselves harder to see (which cant be done in CS, not unless you make them darker, which would be stupid on your half). Also if it were a real life simulation we wouldn't all be mad ****s and rush everywhere now (COCO you saying anything to that I'll kick your ass :wink: )

Bwahahahaha Blah :)

You know what i'm thinking and that's enough :)

Quote from SperO:
a good player shouldnt need to "enhance" his gameplay

turn the gamma down and watch the so called experts fall !!

yup - watch them fall over their own feet cause they can't see anything

The gamma adjustment exists to balance an image on a naturally "dark" monitor

some people may exploit the gamma setting but it hardly makes someone "1337" (Gobbles :P)

dunno why I'm being singled out. I can't make any details in the open let alone shadows without increasing my gamma.

Quote:
i find a cheat is something that makes your gaming more enhanced, PREPARE TO BE TERMINATED

However there are more ways then cheating. Is not increasing your gamma enhancing your gameplay above and beyond what your ability is.

SPERO a good player will be able to make use of these in CS

1. Reflexes - Hand and eye co-ordination
2. Sound - listening to your opponent and his/her placement in the level
3. Accuracy - in relation to reflexes
4. Technique - How you use a weapon

Nothing to do with skin changes, sprite changes (crosshairs), model changes, etc.

People know me for my completely sweet HS with a colt, now you come on my machine and tell me the difference between my models and the original, if anything they are darker.

NOTE : To Term, also what Raiya seems to think makes your gameplay better, how can he tell? I mean what you see on your monitor will ALWAYS be different to what he will see. Or in other words you turn gamma up because you cant pick out something, yet to Raiya it may seem to "GOOD". I mean you might have busted eyes or something, i dunno.
Hell I'm colour blind (yes I can still see colours), what if i wern't like you people? Would I be better? or not?

i turn my gamma up - i belive in fair play and because i still get spotted in dark corners i want to be able to spot other ppl in dark corners

vry important is the mouse speed and the surface ur mouse is on

Quote from Matt:
vry important is the mouse speed and the surface ur mouse is on

Bah too much to type :D

Agreed with here, I use a ratpadz mouse pad and has greatly improved my gameplay. Is that a cheat? It gives smoother mouse movement and easier to aim.
You know what i call this mouse pad? COMMON SENSE!

Is using a 21" monitor a cheat over 15" ?? (same principle as the gamma)

I think with the hardware (gamma, brighness, whatever) you should give up on now because there are too many ways to make your gaming more comfortable and easier, if your not happy then go buy what you think will, and I know for fact we all buy stuff for our computers to make us play better.

At major CS competitions custom models and powerstrip are considered illegal, and I can understand why. For normal gaming I don't really care much about custom models (as long as their within certain parameters offcourse) however Powerstrip in my books is a no no. Its a 3rd party program that increases the amount you can see. If it can't be done through half life, then it shouldn't be allowed.

well i cant speak for most of the debates, but counter strike being like real life?.. um, no.
there isnt the beating down of the elements, or a real fear of being shot, just looking bad in front of your mates. real lives arent in the balance and firing a gun isnt as simle as a click of a mouse.

so counter strike is just a game, you cant simulate real life.

god who cares we only play the game for fun if you play it for stats your a sad person :P

Where the default crosshairs blend in with the maps background, but the "enhanced" ones don't its an unfair advantage.

But in most cases it is tolerable as it is minor in effect.

but.........term when i use my OGC i have no problems i kill when ever i like and i die aswell so what was the point again :P

Quote from Aravi:
Where the default crosshairs blend in with the maps background, but the "enhanced" ones don't its an unfair advantage.

If it ever gets this bad on certain maps. Change the crosshair colour in-game.

Command?

bind "MOUSE1" "+attack; adjust_crosshair"

oh yeah
disco tech

Is using OGC in a LAN based clanwar cheating?

you where born dumb wheren't you

Powerstrip is no cheat. You can change your gamma in windows so I wouldnt really call changing your gamma and such through a 3rd party progam a cheat.

Custom (PLAYER) models is cheating if you do it in any comp. So if I know your using custom player models at next lan , im going to make my CTS fulro blue and T's fulro red :D

If you do it on net or in free for all I couldnt give a shit.

I reckon models make you play better for sure.
I get sick of models really quickly so I find a new one and all of a sudden the game is more enjoyable again (there fore I play better) nothing like getting a new glock sound and model and having it sound beefier and look beefier and next thing you know you are getting a shit load of kills with it cause you are enjoying playing with the model and sounds :)

Quote from Flak -e-:
Powerstrip is no cheat. You can change your gamma in windows so I wouldnt really call changing your gamma and such through a 3rd party progam a cheat.

Custom (PLAYER) models is cheating if you do it in any comp. So if I know your using custom player models at next lan , im going to make my CTS fulro blue and T's fulro red :D

If you do it on net or in free for all I couldnt give a shit.

actually if you are going to call models a cheat in comps you have to call powerstrip a cheat in comp aswell as most big lan comps (ie where you use their comps to make it even) have a standard gamma/brightness range and if you go too bright you can be disqualified. they have ppl wandering around looking at monitors.

http://www.cpleurope.com/event/overview/8/rules#07 07.c be the one I referring to. :P

Powerstrip is a 3rd party program which increases the gammer on the Hardware not the HL.exe so Halflife is origanal and not using anymods to change the game itself its changing the hardware config to increase gamer, and even if thats banned shit ill just up my gammer on my monitor oh no another cheat is it, i think not to be honest.....most resolutions on screens are considerd darker than most.. so why cant we up the gammer to we can see in the corners..... dont take this as a flame im just dicussing the issues, Asteroth point on changing the skins to improve looks and make u wanna play again is a good responce i do that cuz im sick of the old skins myself but the way i was with the old skins to the ones i have now, i still get the same High score sooooo... i knew i was right on the whole realism thing of counter strike so what about the rest i just wanna hear peoples opinions on this thats all thanks guys
and Rayia i sure may have worded what i said wrong but u know what i ment when i started this post :lol: enhancements in my eyes are things that make u kill better and with no skill like a cheat.... but none of the things i have said in my post referes to enhance my skill anymore than my actuall skill of the game, i belive it comes down to how many times u die by my gun, you try find exploits in my skill :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

PREPARE TO BE TERMINATED

Well, an interesting little debate we have here...Seeing as the craZy name was used in the original post, I shall add myself.

Player Skins
There are boundaries that must be kept when utilising skins. My current skins are All Terrorists are either Bikies or Hisbolite Terrorists and all CT's are United Nations Peace keepers. Are these cheets...NO there are infact depictions of real life people keeping with the general genre of the game. Now if my skins were Barney The Purple Thing or Tellitubbies then the answer is YES. If your models are a singular colour or of a flouro nature then again YES that is a cheat.....( If it takes away from the orginal concept of the game it is wrong...Cheat is too big a word to use.
Weapon Skins/Sprites
This too is a fine line.......I have seen skins of an AWP for example that looked like a pistol. It gave the user a sense of a more free action. Do i think that is a cheat....YES.
What is not a cheat is replacing the model with something of better quality, style or design whilst keeping within the parameters of the game.
GAMMA/Brightness.
Currently CS only has Night Vision Goggles and the HL Flashlite. If you are like a few people I know who play CS with a screen that looks as white as snow then I beleive you are detracting from the original intention of the game.....Why did they put that shadow there...SO YOU CAN COCKROACHE...I MEAN HIDE THERE. By increasing your gamma with 3rd party software you are giving yourself an unfair advantage.
Blood Packs
Blood packs can work both ways it makes it easier from a distance to see if you have shot someone, but people can also appear invisible when crouched next to Blood.
In a nutshell classing any of these as a CHEET is a very Bold move. My only concern is that the Gamma adjustment is getting very close to it. That is why at fully sanctioned events it is Default all the way or GOODBYE

Quote from craZy C:
SO YOU CAN COCKROACHE...I MEAN HIDE THERE.

ROFL - freuid strikes again huh? :P

Cockroche is the best camper I have ever not seen :twisted:

i love it when people potray me as a camper ;P

Actually Roachy i would say you are more of an Oversize Garden Gnome.....

Quote from craZy C:
Actually Roachy i would say you are more of an Oversize Garden Gnome.....

I didn't realize they made garden gnomes with colts :P

Are you all debating mathematics ?

ie - mathsdebaters ?

Quote from Mephiston:
I didn't realize they made garden gnomes with colts :P
Tell ya what though they'd be damn sweet in your garden :D Talk about not having to worry about thieves anymore.

Quote from Blah!:
[quote:54b9bed01a="Mephiston"]I didn't realize they made garden gnomes with colts :P
Tell ya what though they'd be damn sweet in your garden :D Talk about not having to worry about thieves anymore.[/quote:54b9bed01a]

even better - clip on the silencer, no more noise abatement rallies on your lawn :P

HAHAHAHA

will keep the neighbours happy :lol:

I just found this post (yes, I'm bored ;)

Adjusting your gamma/brightness is indeed cheating. Sure if you're some newb running around on a public server, chances are no one is going to realise you have an unfair advantage, and probably wouldn't care.

However, it is cheating, case closed, there's no arguement here (appart from softies such as Flam, I'm sure). As much as some of you would like to debate the point, safe your breath. You will get a huge suprise if you ever compete in any even semi-serious competition/tournaments. Disqualification without question.

The same goes for custom sounds, sprites, models, skins etc etc
Play the game how it was intended to be played, without altering anything, otherwise technically yes, you're a cheater.

While many wouldn't call these "cheats", at the end of the day that's what you're doing. By using custom additions, or changing levels of gamma/brightness beyond reason, you're experiencing the game differently, meaning you may or may not be giving yourself an advantage over other players. This advantage is an unfair one, as others may not be aware, and may not be running under the same conditions of you. Giving yourself an unfair advantage over other players is cheating.

For interests sake, the Cyberathlete Professionals League allows a maximum windows/video card gamma setting of 1.2 (0.2 above default), and monitor brightness must be kept within reason, and the admins decide what is in fact reasonable and what isn't.

The World Cyber Games & AusGamers League also follow these stands (or very, very similar). As do many of the larger LANs around Australia such as QGL, Shafted, SGL, MPU.

Anyway, thread ressurected, hah.

Argh trust you to do it :P
God I hate this post :D
I say bugger all you people that use this gamma/brightmess stuff, sif you stop me! (hey I gotta think positive right?) :wink:

I fyou aint using the original sounds, models, and textures. you are a cheat.. case closed.

And until you have accually made the whole damn game over. YOu cannot debate this point. Because everything in fine tuned in a way to make the gameplay better. <--- debate that last bit.

so if i went and installed these modles would it be classified as cheating?

[Image: http://www.mirc-scripts.de/CS-HACKED/misc/screens/ctred.jpg]

[Image: http://www.mirc-scripts.de/CS-HACKED/misc/screens/ctgreen.jpg]

And you would know all about cheating eh Goofy :twisted:

Look, end of the day, Rec is talking about Pro CS play.

In the instance of pub server play, i wouldnt consider any of the powerstrip/models a cheat (unless the models were spiked or like the ones knight posted).

I dont see how u can say something is a cheat simply by stating that it "may give you an unfair advantage". Sure, OGC etc do this, but if i want to give my colt a new look, then why the hell not? Its the same size, the same shape and it doesnt affect its physics in anyway.
The game still performs as it was intended and im not getting any advantage over anyone. Sure my mind may convince me its a new gun and i might start playing better, but hell, if you want to take that path, lets ban Redbull or Coke to stop those people with good reflexes.

Oh and as for Powerstrip.
At the next DGA, i challenge ANYONE OF YOU to come and play cs on my comp, without it. Im not shitting you, i dare you. Until you do, dont even think of calling Powerstrip on my machine a cheat.

Not the machine you dick. Its the monitor.

So rec, if i have cable is that cheating over a dialup?
Because i have a decent monitor thats a cheat because of the brightness?

:S :roll:

Quote from Wortel:
Not the machine you dick. Its the monitor.

So the monitor is running my Powerstrip for me is it?
If your trying to make the point that the monitor is the reason why its dark, then yes, indeed you are correct.
However, this is still the monitor i use, and therefore require the aid of Powerstrip.

Pro CS or public CS, its cheating. However in pub CS you might be lucky enough to find people don't give a shit about how high your brightness is etc. :)

if i played without a 0.4 increase over default in gamma i wouldn't be able to play - everything looks black at default.

IMHO... If you change your configuration (apart from controls), skins, scripts, anything other then DEFAULT STRAIGHT FROM THE BOX INSTALLATION... you are cheating. You have an advantage. Deal with it. The only exception is Gamma. It can be adusted slightly to compensate for naturally bright or dark monitors; but that's it.

If you use a computer above the minimum requirements it's cheating! :D

Quote from ruin:
If you use a computer above the minimum requirements it's cheating! :D

Damn straight! Pentium 200mhz, 16mb of ram, 16mb vid cards, 320x160 res for EVERYONE!

Don't laugh. I used to use exactly this to play CS. And it was good.

(Help! A pixel is attacking me!)

Quote from Wolfspirit:

Don't laugh. I used to use exactly this to play CS. And it was good.

but u wernt :P
LOL

If gamma was cheating then the developers wouldn't of put the option in to change it. What about people that have moniters that don't like dark areas such as tft screen? if they don't have gamma up its a lot harder to play and there would be a big unfair advantage there.

Except that most of the commands like gamma were based for modification on the single player game, not the MOD everyone still plays now. Besides, you can change the gamma in just about any game, and with good reason, lest they'd leave it out.

The only reason professional comps allow little variation of settings from one machine to another is because the machines are all the same. There's no need to alter settings as everyone is in the same boat, good or bad. You can hardly the same for online/public lans.

Quote from Wolfspirit:
IMHO... If you change your configuration (apart from controls), skins, scripts, anything other then DEFAULT STRAIGHT FROM THE BOX INSTALLATION... you are cheating. You have an advantage. Deal with it.

oh fooey.

so if i verse someone that gets 60fps higher than i do then they obviously must be cheating because they have an advantage over me. sorry, your logic is flawed.

there will always be bias in public or 'amateur' gaming - whether it be models, computer specs or gamma - it's just the way it is it is not cheating. it is BIAS - not an unfair advantage but an advantage nevertheless. what about opponents of different skill levels: a higher skilled player has an advantage but not an unfair advantage.

....and that is exactly the point of cheating - to gain an unfair advantage over your opposition regardless of skill level, computer spec or changes to the aesthetics of the game.

in Professional tournaments, yes - these are considered unfair advanatages - but the entire situation is different.

everyone is on the SAME computer, no adjustements can be made because that changes variables. this way it comes down to ability alone as a reflection of how good a person is.

Quote from KILLER:
If gamma was cheating then the developers wouldn't of put the option in to change it.

Half-Life has its own independant gamma setting, which maxes out at 3.0 (which is completely legal and fair.) Pumping this even higher via a 3rd party not related to the game is giving yourself an advantage that others may not know about. If playing publically, I wouldn't be calling this person a cheat, as there people with really screwed up monitors etc and the game would be near unplayable otherwise. Other people use it because they like to see into shadows, which is definately giving yourself an edge most of the competition in a certain server would not even know how, hence, it's unfair, how anybody could deny that is simply beyond me, but it's still not something that I'd kick up a fuss about in public play.

Quote from Seqo:
whether it be models, computer specs or gamma - it's just the way it is it is not cheating. it is BIAS - not an unfair advantage but an advantage nevertheless. what about opponents of different skill levels: a higher skilled player has an advantage but not an unfair advantage.

Custom models, sounds, skins are not always an advantage, sometimes they'll be a disadvantage, but this isn't the point. The point is that is changes the game, and it is now not the same as anyone elses. It is cheating, although once again it's not something I care about when playing publically, as long as these people realise they're not playing the same game as everyone else anymore, and could definately be considered an unfair advantage.

The bottom line is that I'm sure we're all happy for these people who like to modify their installs to play publically etc, however when it comes to clan matches etc, it's definately not appropriate, and I wouldn't hesitate to call an opposing player a cheat if they had a obviously modified install. You think they'd have more respect for the competitive aspect of the game and more respect for the team they are playing than that.
When it comes time for LAN tourney, they will be at a disadvantage, they'll be forced to play on a default, vanilla, stock standard install, they won't be used to it to say the least. They won't be able to crank their gamma or see their familiar custom player skins etc.

What rec said.

I don't know about half of this or how to cheat and I am deffinatly a amature player, but it seems the majortity of players out there are the same. Not every-one is near as good as you guys or has an idea of what goes on behind a computer game. They/we just play them.

With knowledge comes responsibility. Just because you know how to do something dosnt mean you do it. So in the spirit of sportsmanship wouldn't it be fair and fun to be equal with each other. That way when you kill the guy who killed you last round with the most deadlyest Headshot, it is actualy, realy, very sweet, cause it was all you and not something you did with your computer.

Having said that, the same thing for to long can get boring and if a change dosn't effect something then what does it mater.

Having said that i don't now details yet, I just have fun.
ignore my 2c if wish. I do. :D