(fork) Education: Private vs Public

Fork it.

Who cares :?:

Quote from Longtom:
Who cares :?:

I do :!: :)

too long to read so ill spam instead

yeha man that is way too many writing thre to read

You guys have read books, right? Right? :wink:

yeah i read the where wally series :P

What the..... Book? Who the... when did that get programmed. I aint seen one. What rating is it. If it's not an M rating it's not worth playing.

lol

Komilda was private and earned a lot of money and for some reason the not much was put back into the teaching. Teachers had very limited funds and the school was more interested in spending millions on toilet blocks and making the school looks better so it would be more popular.

i went to sanderson from yr 8-11 and i loved it
the toilets are shithouse i wudlnt go in there at all
but who cares u hold it till hometime

but most of the tachers are great and classes are alright and the euipment is up o scratch so it was all good
but then again its a public school s t gets money from goverment

Yeah most Kormilda teachers were SH#T. Went to CSC and the teachers actually tried.

yeha i am at csc now and some of the teachers are laid back and some are stupid but o well
its fairly much liek at sanderson tho sept more work and they hasstl ya a bit more and stuff
and i went to the toilets once cause i ahd to pick a huge bugga out my nose and though they wernt too bad :P

Quote from KILLER:
lol

Komilda was private and earned a lot of money and for some reason the not much was put back into the teaching. Teachers had very limited funds and the school was more interested in spending millions on toilet blocks and making the school looks better so it would be more popular.

Now hang on. Kormilda today is being run by idiots. But under the reign of Derek Hunter and Meredith Saunders, it was run quite well.

Some salient facts:

Kormilda received literally millions of dollars through fundraising for its building fund. By law it had no choice other than to spend that money on buildings. How do I know? My mother used to raise funds for the building fund drive, and was central, along with Meredith, in bagging CRA/Rio Tinto as a sponsor about 10 years ago.

Kormilda's problems arise from:

1. Religious strife. It is jointly operated by the Anglican and Uniting Churches. They simply do not agree on many items of faith, teaching practise and governance. This creates a top-down management nightmare.

2. Over-diversification. Kormilda is trying to be too many things to too many people. An elitist private highschool. A boarding school for poor country kids. A remedial primary school for aboriginals. An NTCE school. An International Baccalaureate school.

3. Kormilda's bad teachers drove out the good. The good ones hated the petty politics of the god-botherers, the bleeding-hearts, the unionists and the left-loonies. The good teachers up and leave. You can find happily cherry-picked Kormilda teachers all over top-shelf public schools. Darwin High and CSC have in particular recruited directly from Kormilda's best teachers.

4. Racial strife. Kormilda is at the jagged edge of the collision between political correctness and visible reality. I have seen quite reasonable white kids go in there and come out screaming neo-nazis. The systemic racism of the staff and the teachers creates a continuous tension between black students (who are directly paid by the Government; and who are quite literally out of control most nights) and white students (who feel as though they are discriminated against).

Basically it's f*cked. It was holding up OK with Hunter and Saunders at the helm. Not brilliantly - we used to make jokes and bitch - but a lot better than it's run now.

With some careful thought they could have narrowed their focus, perhaps investigated moving either blacks or whites to another school elsewhere, or ditching the NTCE, or the IB.

But now it's run by a complete twat called Steven Kinsella, who has not only driven away more good teachers, but who has also driven away the excellent administrative staff that the college has had for about 15 years. Saunders, my mother, and a raft of others, all left because he made their lives miserable. The place has now lost its entire corporate memory. Apart from a handful of teachers and grounds staff, nobody who works there today has been there longer than 5 years.

And to think that the Board didn't even interview Mick Myers (former principal of Moil and Nightcliff High, and proven problem-fixer) because he didn't meet their religious criteria. I mean honestly. It's a mess.

El Presidente i think y'all jsut got too much time on ya hands... go do something usful i would suggest... plant a tree or something?

Quote from Timmy:
El Presidente i think y'all jsut got too much time on ya hands... go do something usful i would suggest... plant a tree or something?

I type at 55 wpm. That also explains my output.

I didn't count them all but there is approx 620 words there which makes it about 11 minutes at 55 wpm. Plus the time to think of all this so perhaps another 9 minutes. So about 20 minutes to write that. Don't uni students have anything better to do? :lol:

From personal experience of been to a public and then to a private... you want an education in highschool go to a private school.

Except bording. Totally different story. Nothing helps then.

I have only ever read 1 book and not even all of it :oops:

Public is for cheapasses (ie. me), private for religious freaks or rich boys n girls.

Or people who live in a regional area that don't have a high school :( And had to board :cry:

meh i goto a private school. private schools do achieve better results than state schools, its as simple as that. if i have the dosh, ill probs sends my kids to a private school too.

Quote from sp3d>>>Noob:
...private for religious freaks or rich boys n girls.
Not everyone who goes to private schools are rich, just thought i'd point that out

Quote from reload!:
meh i goto a private school. private schools do achieve better results than state schools, its as simple as that. if i have the dosh, ill probs sends my kids to a private school too.

Well not necessarily applying to all schools, in particularly in Darwin. In my honest opinion in seeing and knowing the people that came out of all schools after year 12 (if they even made it) public schools have the high ground in Darwin. Myself going to SHS and then to CSC public all the way, I did quite well especially as the public schools offered subjects that wouldn't have been available in the private schools at the level I wanted (not to mention the Moderator teachers for SSABSA (eg Sue Boyd)) were at a public school (CSC).

...you draft your responses?

until you can satisfactorily prove that all students will do better at a private school, you are still wrong. since it can't actually be proven, it is still only an opinion. technically you are therefore incorrect. private schools are not 'better' than public schools and vice versa. i however prefer the benefits of the public system based on past experience. this was the initial point i made, and it is the one thing you cannot disprove, despite numerous pages wasted on the subject.
as i said, this argument is a null topic because there are arguments for and against on both sides, and it cannot factually be proven. public schools are still around for a reason my friend: something for you to chew on while you rehearse your "victory" speech.
some of us are conceited, some of us are stubborn. it amounts to the same thing, although evidence suggests you don't quite realise this yet. :roll:

[note: i at least thought you'd understand the meaning of "straight" :). if you're still puzzling it was a throwaway comment made towards your sexuality, and that response is priceless :).]

my friend went to public high schools and primary schools her whole life. in high school we had almost all the same lessons and she came out first or second in the state.... i dont think it really matters so long as an education is being taught. i know people that hated their private and flashy schools. im happy with my public education, because its more rounded, wheras i have heard that private schools are eletist and full of snobs.... either way i will send my children to whatever school i want and if they arent happy, then i'll try something else.... i dont care about my children being the best in the country or whatever, so long as they grow up healthy, happy and having fun.

Quote from sp3d>>>Noob:
Public is for cheapasses (ie. me), private for religious freaks or rich boys n girls.

That statment is kinda stupid. Lots of rich people go tp public school's as with religious freaks and also a lot of not so rich people get there kids into private schools as they think and hope their kids will get a better education.

If you live in Darwin go public :twisted:

I can't speak for you guys in Darwin, but in Brisbane private schools generally have a better average OP and a better percentage of first choice tertiary education acceptances. The school I go to has had a 99% first choice tertiary education acceptance record for the last 5 odd years (not uncluding tafe).

This isn't a post saying private schools are great, cause they're not. My school shits me constantly. And I'm not saying you can't get an excellent education at a public school, cause you can. But as someone above said that there is a reason public schools still exist, there is also a reason private schools exist and I think that's one of them.

Quote:

Public is for cheapasses (ie. me), private for religious freaks or rich boys n girls.

I'm not a religious freak, my girlfriends family is much richer than mine, and she goes to a public college.

I love my private school, it costs a lot more than a public school, but you get that back in lesser numbers in classes, school structure etc.

*hugs school*

Quote from Longtom:
Who cares :?:

I love a good read, and as a university student it's very interesting to read both views. I'm sort of wandering through my university days in, well, a sort of blissful state of confusion. But at least I'm in good company...

I'm staying out of this one because I'm admittedly ignorant of most of the system. I suppose you could sum my thoughts up with, "What El Pres said." I have some issues upon which we differ, but generally I tend to agree with what a lot of what he says. It makes sense. Of course, if I simply blindly followed what he said without having my own opinions, that would be worse then just ignoring him... there is no thought in blind devotion. So, on some issues we disagree, but mostly-by-and-large we agree. And besides; it'd be unfair of Illusions to have two people saying similar things; and Pres can put it in far more articulate terms then I can manage... yet.

lp and whisper sitting in a tree.......................

too long ot read, reading hurts eyes, thats y games were invented, educate without reading too much.

and i agree

who cares.

Quote from Longtom:
Don't uni students have anything better to do? :lol:

A University is intended to be a bastion of learning, free thought and intelligent debate, irrespective of degree (excluding possibly language subjects) and institution. Well thought out posts of significant length complete this overall objective.

they are also very effective as an anti-insomnia product

I went to both Private and public schools. My parnets were not that rich. I earnt a scholarship and more importantly they wanted a valuable eductaion.

The school I went to (Vic) offered a well rounded (hey i left a qualified barman before I was 18!), enjoyed my sport and did okay academically.

Yes some of the more vocational subjects were not offered that were available at the local high school. At the local high school ther opportunities just were not there. Nor were many of the teachers as keen as ours. Ours came in and saw us in school holidays in year 12.

A good private school cares - can you get a bad one yes, and you can get a good public school too. The second public school I went to was senstational until the principal left (not long after i left)

I know that if I ever have kids I will l;et them go to the local school until year 6 then private from then on if I can afford it.

Quote from El Presidente:
I type at 55 wpm. That also explains my output.

Is this while your at war with you computer???

in Darwin, the general standards are set by Darwin High and CSC. both public schools.

i swear though, darwin will go down because of the new principal - he would have to be the worst principal i have ever seen (or not seen... he doesn't even like doing announcements at assembly and refuses to hand awards to students), bar none. he wants to disperse the Student representative group - which have so far this year raised more than $2000 for Camp Quality and organised many other fundraising events - so that the entire school can vote on a leader... guess who's going to win? popularity does not make a leader...

*sigh* rant rant.

Quote from stealthninja:
[quote:f74a778136="El Presidente"]I type at 55 wpm. That also explains my output.

Is this while your at war with you computer???[/quote:f74a778136]

After a long a bloody battle, I have emerged roughly victorious.

Fork it.

Quote:
I note with interest that you have not addressed my conclusion that the US private universities are more equitable than our own.

i note with interest you decided to ignore my comment on the varying quality of private education :roll:. instead of concentrating on the creme de la creme, assess the system as a whole rather than an elite few.

Quote:
Am I? What if I apply your shiny new criteria of correctness to your own argument? "Until you can satisfactorily prove that all students will do better at a public school, you are still wrong".
Looks like we're both "wrong". Next!

exactly. or more correctly it's actually a function of personality and preference rather than who is right.

Quote:
You've gone where every losing party goes. Unable to make your case from axioms through logic to irrefutable conclusions, you flee to the haven of poor sophists everywhere: relativism. It's an "opinion", therefore above question and beyond meaningful disputation.

Well on that basis, my opinion is that your opinion is wrong.

if you go back and read you'll find that i never stated it was anything other than an opinion. however, if you want to take this argument further, let's have a rational look at why you are "wrong".

firstly, this is an argument on the quality of education, particularly private vs public. quality refers to the degree of excellence attached to the school, although there are varying forms of excellence.
in general a private school selects its pupils, meaning that it not only takes those who can afford the cost, but also the brightest of the bunch. in this respect it is not actually the quality of the education that distinguishes itself, but rather the quality of the students. in comparison to a public education system it does indeed seem as though private schooling is far better. however, appearances can be deceiving.
firstly, public schools cater for everybody, not just the elite few that the school wishes to teach. public schools cannot turn down students, no matter what their ability. in order to compensate for this, public schools offer a larger diversity of courses. not only do they allow the less academically inclined the right to an education, they also cater for the more gifted students as well. in this respect the quality of public education is better because it is more dynamic. if you aren't a rocket scientist, going to an elite private school won't make an ounce of difference. it may infact put you off education. going to a public school however, allows you to undertake a course that is closer to your ability, just incase you can't quite keep up with the prodigal thinkers of tomorrow.

Quote:
Non sequitor, I'm afraid. Your conclusion does not follow from your premises.

technically you are incorrect in your assumption that private schooling is of a greater quality ("better") than public education. they are completely different systems designed to cater for completely different people.
private schooling caters for those who can pay, and from that group they select which pupils they take. this doesn't make the quality of education any better. George W Bush is living proof of this. no siree he was never going to be a brilliant thinker, despite his prestigious private education.

Quote:
Well it depends on criteria for being "better". If the criteria is - as you seem to assert that it is - your own anecdotal experiences, then yes, you win.

If on the other hand, we adopt:

1. A utilitarian approach based in the historical record; or
2. A natural rights approach based in the modern system;

Then it very quickly emerges that public schools are either worse than a wholly private system, or indeed are downright immoral.

aaah the historical record. later on you state that before public education, people were expected to speak latin and read it through their fingertips with their daredevil-like senses (or something to that effect). pity you so conveniantly forgot the meaning of compulsory. not everyone was educated to this extent, although with the advent of public education, the general level increased, allowing those with no opportunities the potential to change that. you'll notice that going back through history, the only people to a) have an education, b) be something other than a "grunt" in the army and c) go to university and have a high paying job, were either members of the church, or had upperclass parents. i've dealt with your little natural rights thingy further on

Quote:
And so your argument here is "Well because I say so, and you can't tell what I'm thinking, so ner!"

no, i was actually going back to the point that sparked the disagreement.

Quote:
Let us then presume for a moment that we cannot settle this either way. That the argument cannot be settled by an appeal to observation (which I have repeatedly done in this argument).

Hence the argument must be settled by logical deduction. Working within a natural rights theory (today known as "human rights"), it turns out that private schools are better than public ones, because they do not require the violation of property rights to make them possible.

and private schools can turn down students, which is effectively saying "no" to their right to an education. but then you conveniently forgot about that little right didn't you? :roll:

Quote:
Sure. In my victory speech I'll mention that compulsory public schooling was invented by Prussia under Bismarck, in order to create unthinking soldiers, clerks and factory workers. It's express aim is to beat out individuality and free thought. That everything from having classes at different places to bells to assemblies to the way in which a class is assessed was designed to create drones.

and at a private school they expect you to think? what runs the large majority of private schools, in particular highschools/secondary education? religion.

Quote:
Sure, it's evolved. Sure, unthinking drones are no longer the goal of the system. Educators today love to talk about "teaching kids to think", almost as much as politicians bleat about "the three Rs" and "respect". But the record speaks for itself. In the United States, which was the second nation to adopt the Prussian model, students before compulsory public education were expected to be able to read, write and speak ancient latin and greek by the time they were fifteen. They were better-read, more conversant with history, mathematics, and literature than we are today.

and the majority of people were relatively uneducated by todays standards. those superbly educated individuals are the result of an entrenched upperclass. peasants never bacame doctors, although there would have been plenty of people with the talent. less gifted aristocrats were given high paying jobs and prestige because "daddy" could afford it.

Quote:
Sure, there's a nexus between conceit and stubbornness. And here we are, both accusing each other of stubbornness. But I am so far the only one who's admitted to having an ego. You remain stubbornly silent on this point.

i never assumed i was right. you admit yourself that i was being evenhanded initially. i have simply been defending my opinion in the face of oppression and arrogance :)

Quote:
I thought you might be throwing aspersions on my sexual orientation, and since that is a grubby tactic in political discourse, I decided that you must mean something else.

You disappoint me.

'tis a rather grubby tactic, but i was illustrating a point. it's a matter of perspective and tastes. it's no worse than blatantly insulting someone's intelligence though.

now, i'll introduce something else into the equation. charter schools.
from http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/showarticle/az/241/improve:

Quote:
Charter schools are public schools that have flexibility in structuring academic programs, hiring teachers and carrying out other functions. The degree of freedom that charter schools have differs by state.

Arizona's charter school laws were first passed in 1995, so most charter schools have only been in operation for a short time, and many new schools are created every year.

Most charter schools offer:

-Smaller class size (20 to 25 students) than traditional public schools
-An alternative way of delivering instruction
-A specialized education targeted at a particular population of students that is not well served by traditional schools, such as at-risk or performing arts students
-Freedom from the bureaucracy that operates traditional public schools
-High standards of fiscal and academic accountability. If the school doesn't manage its fiscal operations well or show gains in student achievement, it can have its charter revoked.

so come again. how is the quality of private education 'better' than public education?

[EDIT: by the way, i forgot to mention that teachers at public schools must be state certified. teachers for private schools don't (at least in the USA anyway).]

Well said

Ahh! Look at my penis growing bigger!

in the words of Korn: "my dick is bigger than yours."

Quote from El Presidente:
And to think that the Board didn't even interview Mick Myers (former principal of Moil and Nightcliff High, and proven problem-fixer) because he didn't meet their religious criteria. I mean honestly. It's a mess.

He was cool. He used to be principal at Moil when I was there, he used to come into our class sometimes and tell us stories about like gnomes who lived in washing machines and stuff.

those were the days :P

Quote from El Presidente:
[quote:7330aae3c5="stealthninja"][quote:7330aae3c5="El Presidente"]I type at 55 wpm. That also explains my output.

Is this while your at war with you computer???[/quote:7330aae3c5]

After a long a bloody battle, I have emerged roughly victorious.[/quote:7330aae3c5]

si i dont get to read any more tripped write ups on your battle with computers ?? :(

You either pay for an education, or the government pays for your education. I don't see the validity of the topic itself. What's the result you're aiming to achieve with this?

The only socially-just form of education would be free, where the student puts the skills to use they've learned to benefit the community as a whole. We're a bang-for-our-buck centred culture, so there's no doubting the opportunities will be greater if you're willing mark your "X" with a gold-nibbed pen.

Join a commune.

...i believe i have already said something along the lines of "this is a null topic". go back to the start and read the whole thread, if you're really that curious and have enough free time :)

Quote from StaticRevenger:
[quote:bced424c83="El Presidente"]And to think that the Board didn't even interview Mick Myers (former principal of Moil and Nightcliff High, and proven problem-fixer) because he didn't meet their religious criteria. I mean honestly. It's a mess.

He was cool. He used to be principal at Moil when I was there, he used to come into our class sometimes and tell us stories about like gnomes who lived in washing machines and stuff.

those were the days :P[/quote:bced424c83]

Hah I went to moil while he was the principal as well although he left while i was in yr 7 i think(1995 or something). I agree he was cool, i remember when he came into to tell me off for not doing my homework. He was all stern and gave me a lecture then ended it with a joke, I thought that was pretty cool. He was stricked but he never made himself out to be a monster.

Mick Myers, stern...but fair. ;)

Either system works.

ie: I submit exhibit 1.

Harbinger

A true product of the system :shock: :shock: 8)

Privates kids UAI's are knocked up because there whole school does well, but us public schoolers is knocked down because of all the idiots... But we kick the private schools, and there fancy crap :D

Quote from Cr@zY TuRKeY:
Privates kids UAI's are knocked up because there whole school does well, but us public schoolers is knocked down because of all the idiots

therefore couldnt it be said that you are paying for better results?

in the end i dont really care because my parents made the choice for me. why are some of you guys so passionate about the subject anyway? u may have stated it but i didnt read your entire posts for fear of my brain exploding and spraying the surrounding environment with grey matter :P

Fork it.

Freedom from what? A public education? Limited choice? Sure, the public schooling system gives little to no scope when it comes to subject matter, but what's the alternative?

Simple, PAY for your freedom of choice. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Quote from doyen:
Freedom from what? A public education? Limited choice? Sure, the public schooling system gives little to no scope when it comes to subject matter, but what's the alternative?

Simple, PAY for your freedom of choice. Hypocrisy at its finest.

nicely put :).
pres i'm waiting for your drafted 98723477384 page response to my latest offering. no i don't believe passionately in this subject. yes i believe you are wanky, and no i don't believe our society will go the way of the roman empire any time soon....

Quote from Illusions:
no i don't believe passionately in this subject. yes i believe you are wanky, and no i don't believe our society will go the way of the roman empire any time soon....

lol jsut readin through, clicked last page (didn't read all the other pages)
that part about the romans is pretty funny.

Quote from El Presidente:
History is a struggle between civility and barbarism. There is no middle ground, only movement from one towards the other.

what about conan the barbarian...he was a pretty civil chap and yet his title clearly indicates he's a barbarian.

i'll be off now to bed me some wenches....

You guys are just asking for it aren't ya. You know pres is going to write a novel every time you stir him. that's why i gave up after page 1. Couldn't be bothered reading the stories.

No, I think I'll just reserve judgement. Clearly nobody gives a sh*t about the world they live in. So sod youse all. I guess that instead of giving my life to helping people, I'll just get mine and get out.

Maybe I should be a politician.

Quote from doyen:

Simple, PAY for your freedom of choice. Hypocrisy at its finest.

You're paying for it anyway, even if you're not using it, whether you like it or not.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to explain why this is fair, making specific references to Natural Law, Utilitarianism and Virtue Theory.

Bonus marks if you can find out a way to call me a hypocrite. (Hint: I work for government money).

Quote from El Presidente:
No, I think I'll just reserve judgement. Clearly nobody gives a sh*t about the world they live in. So sod youse all. I guess that instead of giving my life to helping people, I'll just get mine and get out.

Maybe I should be a politician.

It will take another world war again before western people start giving a shit about the world they live in. History repeats itself so it may happen.

My 2 cents, I think education up to yr 12 should be free. UNI is ok with HEX and I hope it stays that way. It should be like this so we build a stronger better nation. That way people who don't work and didn't get an education don't have an excuse.

There can be private schools where parents pay alot of money because lets face it, theres always gonna be parents who think their kids are special and deserve better. Take a look at sport and the problems there, i mean every parent thinks their kid is gonna be the next bradman or whatever.

Then theres parents who will teach their children to work hard and achieve great things no matter what. As long as you work hard towards what you wanna do you can do it. Private education, public education, whatever. Same shit, different smell.