At long bloody last.

After more than a quarter of a century of lobbying, students in Australia will soon have the option to not join a student union, guild, association or council on their campuses.

Voluntary Student Unionism is set to arrive here after the introduction of legislation by the Federal Minister for Education in Parliament today.

The Australian Liberal Students Federation has been instrumental in preventing the Minister from wussing out and watering down th legislation.

Finally!

LMAO@ Bob Geldof fiasco...loved the parties tho :(

Bye bye Student Union...

The local one will definitely almost certainly tits up. It's been run by incompetents since day dot.

Nationally, the sensible ones will prosper. The University of Sydney Union has been preparing for VSU since 1997, and they make far more from commercial activity than student fees.

It's the shitty ones, like ours, that will fail.

Corrupt would be a better word :)

Depends on whether you can afford to defend a libel case.

In seriousness, though, I think that the CDUSU is a farce. During their Clubs and Societies dramas (where, I might add, the Liberal Club went in to bat hardest for everyone) they demonstrated ignorance and shortsightedness. During the same period we in the ULC investigated establishing an umbrella organisation for Clubs and Societies at the university. It might be worth revisiting that idea.

Pffft they only got libelous after TUGS got involved :P
I was on campus during the mid 90's and so were most of the Student Union.

Most of these guys will happily tell you how much they got away with :)

I doubt they'd be quite so happy if they were subjected to forensic audit, followed by charges for larceny, theft, breach of fiduciary duty etc.

Which, if we had any say, would be pretty much the final act of the student union before winding up. Forensic audit, charges, monies recovered, creditors paid, staff fired, lights turned off and doors locked.

7 years have passed....no documentation survives...they arent dumb :)

Forensic audits don't just go on the books. That's the point of a forensic audit. You spends thousands of dollars to hire private detectives, tax specialists, etc. They are very expensive, simply because they go "beyond the books".

And believe me as one of the guys in the NTJAS organisation, we're greatful for the Lib's at NTU. You're all a credit.

The NTUSU was always a bit 'evil'... and part of the reason I abolished my relationship with the university.

Wait, so if I'm a student @ uni, I'm already a part of the student union? Didn't know that. Well as long as they leave me alone it's all good :).

They werent all bad...

'95 had 2 partys a week sponsored by the Union :)

I think it's great. Why pay for a service I'd never actually use. :)

Then we get back into this argument about whether you should immerse yourself in the Uni culture or just see it as an extended school :)

I think we had this argument a year or so ago Seqo :)

lol, the student union in canberra is acting like its the end of the world, organising posters, giving speeches at the start of lectures and organising talk at the uni bar

Long Response - But Please Read.

Quote from Wally:
lol, the student union in canberra is acting like its the end of the world, organising posters, giving speeches at the start of lectures and organising talk at the uni bar

That's because it is going to be the end of the world Wally. The end of the world outside of the purely academic side of university life.

The General Services Fee (GSF) of $220 helps pay for a whole range of things. It reduces the price of all food and drinks sold in Union Court and any other 'offical' sellers of food in the University - and yes, that includes beer.

It also provides a means for the Clubs and Societies to be able to run efficientally. It is expected that after the legislation is enacted, that the only societies to remain in ANU will be the Debating Society (which like all the other societies will have to DRAMATICALLY increase their fees and stop offering free food and drinks), the Law Students Society, the Liberal Club and perhaps an almagamation of the Labor Left and Right Clubs. Even then, these societies will have nothing of the resources available to them as under the current scheme.

A portion of the fee goes to the University Accomodation Services, the University Social Welfare Officer, First Stop Legal (and Centerlink) Advice Services, the Medical Doctors and Nurses on Campus, Counsellors and Psychologists... A whole range of services will no longer be available to students in the form that they currently are now, or will be removed completely.

Another function that the GSF fulfills is that it provides MASSIVELY subsidised ANU Gym Fees. Full Year membership for the Gym at the discounted price for ANU Staffers is 300 bucks, but, for the students because of the GSF, the Annual membership is only "10!

Another serious consequence is that it could lead to an end to all Resident's Associations (RA's). That means all of the fun activities at your Hall or Residence will no-longer occour or will be significantly reduced because of the RA's inability to independantly collect fees from students applying to stay at a Residence or Hall.

While the RA may not be completely disbanded ( as Hall/ Residence Administration require them to remain to at least co-ordinate some social activities) their funds will be greatly restricted, and the ability of the RA to represent the views of the residents when it is disagreement with administration (Which is happening at the moment with Burton and Garran, and Fenner Hall as we fight for our own Head of Hall, instead of a shared head) will be nullified, because all the funding that the RA will recieve will come straight from administration.

The GSF will also remove the Student's Association. Which protects student's rights. Yes. All student's rights. Even the rights of the Liberal Party Students, and those crazy 'No So Pauline Hanson One Nation Party Supporters', right down to those who 'identify' with The Greens or even the Labor Party. If your a student, you have the ability to raise your concerns to the SA, who has the capability and resources to tackle student concerns.

Sure. You can say, well the GSF is so expensive and I'm not a member of a society, and I never need to use counselling. That's fine. But it's not what the GSF is about. The GSF is about providing services and making those services permanent, incase you do need to pop into First Stop and have someone check over your Centrelink Allowances, or incase you do want to join or create a society of like minded students, or incase you want to grab a beer and something to eat on a Friday Night without having to pay an arm and an leg or even being able to get a check up from a Nurse or Doctor. That way, the service you need will be available to you when and if you need it.

These things are all part of University life. When most students go to university they don't go there and think... 'Oh Yay. I can't wait to go to Uni and attend my lectures and go home.' They think of the broader perspective of university/ college life. About going down the Uni Bar for a drink. About getting involved in a society, be it the Rollplayer's Guild, the Manga Society or the Caving Club. It's about meeting new people and having a good time.
It's about more than just studying.

Don't you think?

no. i went to uni purely for an education. i couldn't give a rats ass about subsidizing someone elses beer, or addiction to chidlike japanese cartoon chicks. i should have the -choice- to pay for what i want to use, and not a goddamn penny more.

Your loss paladin - Uni life rocked - never forget it as long as I live. Although I tend to think of life as more than get an education->job->die. But hey, thats just me...

I won't mind not paying the money, CDU doesn't have much of a student life, the bar is never open for lunch. Main problem people just see cdu as extended schooling, down south the Unis do have a decent culture and lots of clubs and societies.

There should be a choice, forced unionism is something like tax imo. You may or may not use the services but you still gotta pay anyway.

Quote from OverDrive:
Your loss paladin - Uni life rocked - never forget it as long as I live. Although I tend to think of life as more than get an education->job->die. But hey, thats just me...

yeah thats why i persue extra curricular activities. i just don't expect other people to be forced to pay for them.

you're paying for his, he's paying for yours. personally, I don't see the problem.

if you don't want the pickles, peel them off your burger. I hardly think its justified to penalise a service that for the most part is utilised and enjoyed by the majority of students. personally, I don't join an association such as the local video store, then demand 90% of my funds back because I only want to hire the porno's. the range is there to be used, if you don't, that's your loss.

Ahli, what a lovely article. What a pity it's a load of bollocks.

Here in the NT, the University Liberal Club since its inception has received zero, nada, zilch, zip, that is to say, no money from the Student Union. Every dollar we spend is a dollar we've raised ourselves.

In that time we've run dozens of Freedom LANs, two Paul Everingham Lectures, BBQs, and given out hundreds of dollars of free beer, not to mention food. We've also campaigned on political issues, both on- and off-campus. Bloody effectively too, I might add.

The truth is that Voluntary Student Unionism is the end of nothing - nothing, that is, except for cronyism, corruption, laziness, incompetence, and sweetheart deals. Nobody cares about these things outside of Student Liberals, it seems, at time and time again it has been shown the the sacred trust of compulsory student fees has been urinated on over and over by lefties and laborites in the violation of a fundamental human right. Enough is enough.

You say that services will be reduced. The West Australian experience was exactly the opposite. Once the queer rooms, the leftie bus trips and plane tickets, the pointless and irrelevant political campaigns ad nauseum were cancelled, service provision by WA student groups rose. It went up. The situation improved. It did so because for the first time, students had every right to take their money elsewhere if they weren't getting value for it. At first most did so; as the Unions improved, the student dollars returned.

I've heard every argument against VSU. I've heard them all. From end to end, from top to bottom, they are absolute bunk. Not one of them stands up to the test of either morality or reality. The time for voluntary student unionism is now.

during my time at cdu the student union cost me about $900

for that I think I received about 4 sausages and 2 cans of coke

****en bargain

I'm confused, if monetary contribution is is so important to the majority of students going to uni, shouldn't the union still get lots of money?

It's not like the money is literally being taken away; it's still there.

On a related notes, does DGA get any monetary support from the government?

Yeh we did coco :)

My stay at CDU has shown that the university up here basically is extended school. I've joined in some functions... which I had to pay for on top of the cost anyway. The only regular function I attend is the IEAust (Institute of Engineers Australia) BBQ's for IEAust Members... I don't have to pay for that, but neither does the Student Union.

If I was at, say, UNSW (where I plan to transfer) then I would still not be happy paying the union fees because I would still not use any of the facilities on offer. For instance, living in a college I would participate in organised college events to get to know the people living with me better. This would all come from my college fees.

Doyen, a video store you don't have to pay for the membership (not any that I've ever been a member of...) you pay for the hire of the product. Seperate costs per item. It's not like you get a choice of what events/items you want from the Student Union... you get the lot whether you like it or not and you have to pay for all of it. Now you don't.

It's all horses for courses really.

AFAIK, Ruin, DGA has to apply for government backed financial support as an association and it may have received some support so far... but I'm not sure. Burk'd know.

I understand DGA received assistance from the Office for Youth Affairs. You may recall I was against it (and still am).

Quote from doyen:
you're paying for his, he's paying for yours. personally, I don't see the problem.

if you don't want the pickles, peel them off your burger. I hardly think its justified to penalise a service that for the most part is utilised and enjoyed by the majority of students. personally, I don't join an association such as the local video store, then demand 90% of my funds back because I only want to hire the porno's. the range is there to be used, if you don't, that's your loss.

you're also not forced to join the video store, so your point is.. pointless. if i don't want pickles on my burger, i ask for it without pickles. if i dont want unionism in my university education, now i will be able to ask for it without the union.

if you don't see the problem, it's because you're a beneficiary of the system. you know what i got out of the union at cdu? absolutely nothing.

if you don't see a problem with the system, you will be free to continue to join the union and submit your contribution, it will simply become an opt in system (unless i completely misread the intent of the bill), as opposed to a lock in system.

if you want to give them money and enjoy the benefits, do so. i got no benefits, so would have far preferred to have given no money.

I should add to paladin's comments that if "most students" do in fact use the services provided by student unions, those services will not go away. It is the wasteful and irrelevant that you can expect to see dry up.

Seqo: down here you do, you pay for membership, and then you pay for your movies. you pay for everything. ;)

pala: No, you're forced to join the store if you want to watch the movies. Just as you are forced to join the union if you want the education.

However, that's true, they are just taking taking away the mandatory aspect, not abolishing them, so I'll withdraw on that point. I guess I just find it hard to understand that you have unions up there that aren't providing you with any services.

I mean, both uni's I went to had advocates going out of their way to preach all about their wide variety of goods and services (most of which were either bloody useful, or a great laugh).

EDIT: So I'm not misunderstood, services such as a 10 - 20% discount via the co-op bookshop on all reading materials for being a member, including deals with many of the local stationary/student supply shops in the local area (via coupons). That alone would have covered the cost of our membership, but there was so much more offered...

So, good luck to it, if this means your local will have to pull its finger out, much the better.

Doyen, you should go to video ezy, its free to sign up there :p

It's further away - too lazy :p

Quote from doyen:
S
pala: No, you're forced to join the store if you want to watch the movies. Just as you are forced to join the union if you want the education.

to nitpick further on that point; the store provides the movies. the union does not provide the education.

they're supposed to be providing support for that education, which in my experience and those of my mates, is true. the store provides a support service for hiring movies created and supplied by others.

but nitpick to your heart's content mate, what ever gets you going ;)

Quote from El Presidente:
Ahli, what a lovely article. What a pity it's a load of bollocks.... I've heard every argument against VSU. I've heard them all. From end to end, from top to bottom, they are absolute bunk. Not one of them stands up to the test of either morality or reality. The time for voluntary student unionism is now.
Congratulations on the University Liberal Club, El Pressie. I mean, it must be difficult to establish a Liberal club in perhaps the most pro-Liberal part of Australia - the Northern Territory. Need I remind you that the Northern Territory Government with the exception of one parliamentary term, has self-government been dominated by the Country Liberal Party. In my understanding, if a Liberal Mouthpiece jabbering in Liberal Heart Land, to a bunch of regular LAN-going liberal nerds can't generate enough funding for a few 'FREEDOM' LANs I wouldn't suggest that this is earth shattering and irrevocably undeniable proof that VSU works, rather proof that even the incompetant can run Liberal Clubs and make the mildly successful.

So the premise in which you seem to create that once VSU is enacted, clubs will still be able to function, and the world will not change, is completely questionable. So is this idea that starting VSU will...
Quote from El Presidente:

The truth is that Voluntary Student Unionism is the end of nothing - nothing, that is, except for cronyism, corruption, laziness, incompetence, and sweetheart deals.
An argument I find interesting. But then I read the rest of your paragraph and had to laugh out loud...
Quote from El Presidente:

Nobody cares about these things outside of Student Liberals, it seems, at time and time again it has been shown the the sacred trust of compulsory student fees has been urinated on over and over by lefties and laborites in the violation of a fundamental human right. Enough is enough.
Well if VOLUNTARY collection of a fee for students (regardless of what you say, it it is voluntary and there is a body of common law supporting this arraignment and if you would like me to explain this in futhur detail I will, but essentially the fundamental right to freedom of association as perscribed in the UN Charter of Human Rights means that if anyone who has a genuine religious, ideological or other objection to being a Student Union member THEY HAVE THE CHOICE to be a conscientious objector in which case they pay their fees to the university, instead of the Union) is a breach of fundamental human rights then Bob Brown is a straight man. Although if you were stating that lefties and laborites urinating on a democratic institution like the Student Association, then perhaps, yes, that would constitue a crime, indecent exposure, but certainly no breach of International Humanitarian Law.

And yes, I know it may be a little hard to swallow, but the Student Assocations are a DEMOCRATIC association. That's the great thing about it. You might like to suggest that corruption is inherent in all Student Unions. That's a gross misrepresentation, I think you'll find that on the whole, most Student Unions are bodies of students (most of which who are trying to gain a political career through their actions in the Student Union, by acting in an upright and honest manner) who are genuinely committed to protection, and service of students within and outside of academic activities. Another point which you might try to conceal is the fact that there are lots of Liberal Club members nationally which are MEMBERS of the Student Association. Ironic really isn't it? Yes other "Liberals" can see the benefits of joining and participating in the Student Union, and have done so frequently. In fact, they are often welcomed by most Student Unions who encourage that all people from all backgrounds apply.

And Student Union member's aren't the only people to see the merit in the model of 'Compulsory' Student Unionism. You'll undoubtedly be pleased to note that the Australian Vice Chancellors Comitte (AVCC) has recently stated that it fully supports CSU and Student Unions as the best organizations to effectively provide essential services to students at universities as well as independantly represent student's concerns.

I'd also like to quote our National Union of Student's President Felix Eldridge who stated in an opinion piece:
Quote from Felix Eldridge:

An off-campus example brought to mind is the 'Voluntary Ambulance Levy' that Queenslanders were subject to a few years ago. Now, most people would agree that it's hard to think of a service more essential than Ambulances. Surprisingly enough though, when it came down to it, the vast majority of people didn't contribute and as a result, ambulance services in Queensland were inadequate- a clear case of market failure. Needless to say, the levy was made compulsory, as this was recognised as the only way to ensure that everyone who benefits from the service contributes to it's funding. There are literally endless other examples. Student Organisations are a similar case- the services and representation they provide benefit all students, the sheer breadth of provision ensures this.
Felix also quite rightly points out that the real reason that the Australian Liberal Students Federation wants the abolition of 'Compulsory' Student Unionism, is that the Union has the capicity to disagree with the Government, in this case a Liberal Goverment.

If only the Australian Liberal Students Federation had foresight enough - or the recollection to remeber, that if another political party is in charge of Federal Parliament, that they may need the resources, the money and the support services to tackle not only their own day to day Uni-Life issues, but perhaps even disagree with a non-Liberal Government. And the day that a non-Liberal Government listens to a Liberal Students group, pigs really will fly.

Nice post. :)

Quote from doyen:
they're supposed to be providing support for that education, which in my experience and those of my mates, is true. the store provides a support service for hiring movies created and supplied by others.

but nitpick to your heart's content mate, what ever gets you going ;)

ok, i'll keep going. your analogy would be correct if all the video store did was throw a free bag of chips at you each time you went in an hired a movie from the movie studio directly. which is apparently what the student union is supposed to do, throw crap at you while you pay for your education. i dont want the crap, and i dont want the chips. i want the movie, and i want the education.

also,
Quote from "Ahli":

blah blah blah blah blah blah

to summarise, you think i should be forced to pay for something i don't want?

Quote from paladin:

to summarise, you think i should be forced to pay for something i don't want?

Not what I'm saying at all. Infact there are even arguments to suggest that the services you recieve because of Compulsory Student Unionism shouldn't be classified as a 'want' but as a 'need'. Services like career's advice, counselling, first aid, and legal/ centrelink advice are all provided free at almost every university in Australia. There was a case at ANU last year where I am studying that a student got kicked out of home, beaten and abused by his parents, and literally had no way to support himself or even to find shelter that night. He went along to the Student Association, who organised for him, an interest free student loan, organised for him to recieve centrelink payments straight away, organised food and treatment for the cuts he'd recieved, and also got a place for him to sleep at night sorted out as well. That's the kind of work that a Student Assocaition does behind the scenes on a regular basis (unfortunately for the students who have to deal with this kind of treatment). In reality, what happens is that you may not realise how useful a Student Union is, until you actually have to use it.

I'm not sure which university you are currently studying, at but chances are if like I read early, students of Charles Darwin University are subject to shit bar service, and shit sausage sizzles which only happen very rarely, that it's not a problem with the concept of compulsory student unionism, but rather a problem with the CDU Student Union.

And here's the great thing about Compulsory Student Unionism... If the Student Union isn't doing the right thing by you, you have the opportuntity to go and complain, or become a member, and encourage like minded people to join together and provide the kinds of services you want for the university's student community.

Quote from CoCoBuckeTs:
Nice post. :)
thanks. :D

Although it will be interesting to gauge El Pressie's reaction.

A discussion with 2 informed sides is much more interesting. :)

i'm no longer studying. not only does cdu have a crappy student union, it has crappy administration, and crappy courses. working is a far more pleasurable way to spend my time.

and as has already been pointed out. if these unions are such wonderful things everywhere else, then people will be flocking to join up, won't they? and those few of us (like me), who don't want to join, are no longer forced to signup to what seems like a mandated racketeering scheme.

so what would you recommend for those students who fall into the crack of "I don't need this service, so I won't pay for it" and therefore choose not to, then later find themselves in a position where they need those services?

They can sign up when they reach that point. Paying the Union fees from then on in...

i suggest they pay for it when they need it. the point is they should have a choice about joining the union, if they don't want to, they shouldn't be forced into it.

Quote from paladin:
i'm no longer studying. not only does cdu have a crappy student union, it has crappy administration, and crappy courses. working is a far more pleasurable way to spend my time.

and as has already been pointed out. if these unions are such wonderful things everywhere else, then people will be flocking to join up, won't they? and those few of us (like me), who don't want to join, are no longer forced to signup to what seems like a mandated racketeering scheme.

Sounds like you a have a problem with CDU generally. Therefore your specific concerns about CDU probably constitue the need for another thread on the topic of "Does CDU Suck?". Which would be very interesting, but I guess there's probably been a thread like that on here before.

In regards to the note about the membership of unions. I guess there is two points. One. Union membership is as a general trend increasing. Student Unions all report that they are encouraged by the amount of students voicing their concern for the loss of their Student Union and the Services it offers. In fact many people are expecting S11 sized protests. However, in all honesty, most students when given the choice of not having to pay 220 bucks, when money is tight, will 9 times out of 10, not pay. Thus the example of the Queensland Ambulence Levy. When Queenslanders didnt' have to pay for the Ambulence Levy, the services offered reduced accordingly, and therefore more people didn't want to pay for a restricted service, and it spiralled out of control, and the government had to re-intervene to make sure that this essential service is provided.

It's not a mandated racketeering scheme, because at the end of the day every student union is held accountable to the students. That's the beauty of elections and democracy.

I find it ironic that we see it nessicary to forcibly export 'democracy' to the middle-east and all corners of the globe, yet here in our own back yard, we are trying to remove the voice of a significant part of our community - students.

Quote from Seqo:
They can sign up when they reach that point. Paying the Union fees from then on in...
and
Quote from paladin:
I suggest they pay for it when they need it. the point is they should have a choice about joining the union, if they don't want to, they shouldn't be forced into it.
In regards to my example of the student at ANU that I mentioned before... which I'll quote for those who missed it...
Quote from ahli:
There was a case at ANU last year where I am studying that a student got kicked out of home, beaten and abused by his parents, and literally had no way to support himself or even to find shelter that night. He went along to the Student Association, who organised for him, an interest free student loan, organised for him to recieve centrelink payments straight away, organised food and treatment for the cuts he'd recieved, and also got a place for him to sleep at night sorted out as well. That's the kind of work that a Student Assocaition does behind the scenes on a regular basis (unfortunately for the students who have to deal with this kind of treatment). In reality, what happens is that you may not realise how useful a Student Union is, until you actually have to use it.

Can I ask you guys to look at this seriously for a second? A guy with no money, beaten up and left without food and money isn't exactly in a position to turn around and say, "Oh yeah guys. I need a interest free loan, some food, accomodation, help getting centrelink set up, etc etc." The Student Association would have to check to see if they had paid their way in and become a member... If they didn't pay for the service before that time, they would have been in the shit, with no support.

Too often, people don't realise the importance of a service until it no longer exists.

Quote from Seqo:
They can sign up when they reach that point. Paying the Union fees from then on in...

well, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. because if that were to happen, I have the funniest feeling it'd turn out more like the current private medical insurance system.

Quote from ahli:

I find it ironic that we see it nessicary to forcibly export 'democracy' to the middle-east and all corners of the globe, yet here in our own back yard, we are trying to remove the voice of a significant part of our community - students.

uhm. whats democratic about being forced to do something you dont want to? how is making it voluntary removing the voice? they can STILL JOIN THE UNION.

as for your example. i'm really sorry that happened to the guy, and it's nice to see he was helped. but at the end of the day, i shouldn't be forced to pay for his misfortune. ask for a donation, sure by all means. but to stand in front of me, and demand my wallet? no thanks.

Quote from doyen:
so what would you recommend for those students who fall into the crack of "I don't need this service, so I won't pay for it" and therefore choose not to, then later find themselves in a position where they need those services?

If I was confronted with a student who had said, that they didn't need or pay for the Student Union, and then fell into the circumstances I outlined above... What would I give them? Well, a huge serving of "I told you so" to start off with.

The sad thing about Compulsory Student Unionism, is that once it's gone. It's gone. And there won't be any ressurecting it. Unfortunately too many people are of the opinion that Student Union's don't affect them, but once you start to see the workings of a good student union, you can see how essential they really are, and no-one is more qualified to state how "essential" they are than the Australian Vice Chancellors Committee, which said that student unions and 'compulsory' student unionism is exactly that... "essential" and they've said it a dozens times over.

Although if your interested doyen, in what a student would be able to without the support of Student Union given the circumstances I outlined above... There isn't anything I am aware of that can cater for the needs of students, like that, besides a Student Union.

Quote from paladin:
uhm. whats democratic about being forced to do something you dont want to? how is making it voluntary removing the voice? they can STILL JOIN THE UNION.

as for your example. i'm really sorry that happened to the guy, and it's nice to see he was helped. but at the end of the day, i shouldn't be forced to pay for his misfortune. ask for a donation, sure by all means. but to stand in front of me, and demand my wallet? no thanks.

Well. I'm aware that this probably going to bore you shitless, but the word democracy comes from the terms demos and cratos. Which essentially means of the people. The Student Union is voted for by any student that wants to, and the candidates are made up any student that wants to be a candidate. That's democracy. Liken it to the government if you will. If your an Australian Citizen, you pay taxes, and in return get services. You also expect the government to act in a certain way and if you don't like the way you act, you can vote for someone else. It works the same way.

I think your getting the ideals of liberty and democracy confused. Libertarians would suggest that they should be free to do anything they want so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others, this includes the right not to be a part of union. However, democracy as it is refered to today is about representation of the people and their concerns. One of the other big functions of the Student's Assocation come Union, or whatever you want to call it, is that they are an effective voice for voiceing protest against the goverment. So effective that the Liberal Students Federation want to abolish it.

On the point of your wallet, well it sounds like you believe in a Liberal user-pays system. And that's okay. Your allowed to believe in whatever you believe. But I generally believe that it's not unreasonable for students who want to become a part of a university's society, should have to fork out a little bit of money, so that a whole range of services and representation can be made available to them. In my opnion, it's enhancing the choices available to students, not diminishing them.

Quote from ahli:
believe. But I generally believe that it's not unreasonable for students who want to become a part of a university's society, should have to fork out a little bit of money, so that a whole range of services and representation can be made available to them. In my opnion, it's enhancing the choices available to students, not diminishing them.

that one single word that i bolded is what it all comes down to really. what the student wants to do.

Quote from paladin:
that one single word that i bolded is what it all comes down to really. what the student wants to do.

And what the students want will become very apparent, when you see the protests in Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth... perhaps even Darwin.

University is for almost everyone, much much more than just going to lectures.

Im with Paladin on this. Working is much better than uni at CDU. Also, as was said, it should be the students choice to join...they shouldnt be forced. Youa rgue that what if they are in that crappy situation where they need it...well what if I'm not and never in that position? Why shoudl I still pay. And even if I WAS in that situation, dont you think its MY choice to decide whether I want to run that risk or not?

Quote from ahli:
And what the students want will become very apparent, when you see the protests in Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth... perhaps even Darwin.

University is for almost everyone, much much more than just going to lectures.

right, so if everyone in those massive protests you're expecting, ponies up the cash to join the union. there's no problem is there? those who want it, have it. those who don't want it, don't.

As for that second bit, if i want the extras that go with 'uni life', then i'll pay for them thanks. if i don't want the extras, i have no interest in paying for them for people who do.

Quote from Wrathlon:
... You argue that what if they are in that crappy situation where they need it...well what if I'm not and never in that position? Why shoudl I still pay. And even if I WAS in that situation, dont you think its MY choice to decide whether I want to run that risk or not?

As long as you don't whinge about it if it happens.

As per my reference to medical insurance before, you pay into it with the forethought that you may need it in the future. However, with that scenario, if you don't, you currently have the benefit that should something happen there's still free government medical net available that will catch you in the event that it does.

If this does become voluntary, there's no net. Something happens, you're ****ed.

that's life, and i thoroughly agree it would be wrong for someone like me who doesn't want to pay for this union membership, to turn around and crawl on their knees to them begging for help later on

but they would help, and do you know why?
because morally, people (students included) would feel obliged to. it's human nature.

... and so the now voluntary student union suffers because of this exact problem.

In saying that .. You cant expect people to pay if they dont want too.

It comes down to Choice. You choose to pay and use, or you dont pay and dont use the Student Union.

If the students accept the person then good for them, but you cant lay the blame on those that havnt/dont want to pay.

i dont know about that. i don't have ambulance coverage. when i needed one a couple years ago, they didnt waive the $400 fee out of any sort of generosity.

Generally you guys are loosing site of the topic again.

The topic really is, do you basic ammenities and services to be offered as a part of beloning to a university?

When you were at highschool, your parents paid fees to go to highschool, and you access to careers advisors, counsellors, the school nurse as well as stack of other opportunities outside of the classroom. It's the same deal here, except you also get a student union which you can choose to be or not to be a part of; if you pay your fees. That student union will protect and uphold your rights within the university, and also will represent student concerns to the broader community.

Let's look at another example of where the Student Union helps people out. Imagine if you write and essay, and you get a mark which is completely bullshit, and you show it to a few friends, who also think the mark you recieved was bullshit. So you take it back to the lecturer, and the lecturer says that his mark is final and he's not reviewing it. The Student Union can appeal to the faculty to have the assignment reviewed by the faculty... what if you get an unfair dealing with the administration? You can contact the student union.

The student union provides a service, unfortunately it's the kind of resource which needs funds to be able to operate. It can't operate on 'good will', and operates more effectively if it says it has a membership base of literally the entire student populous. It will be independant of just about everything, university, government, business and therefore is able to maintain those intrests which need to be maintained - yours.

Look at it through a costs-benefits analysis. If you want an omlette, your going to have to break a few eggs.

yeah, but my bet is you weren't begging for it either - you took in good stead (though I'm sure it wasn't at the time :D) and paid up.

my doubts are on those that will whinge that they want something for nothing, and get it.

my exact response was 'those goddamn extortionists, if i'd know that i would have taken a taxi!#%!#%'

lol

Wouldn't the best option be a compulsory fee that goes to paying for student services which directly and indirectly relate to getting an education while paying for clubs and sport activities for instance be made voluntary?

Quote from ahli:
Generally you guys are loosing site of the topic again.

I know exactly what the topic is. And I've put my point of view in, stop preaching already.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree the Student Union does great things (so you can stop with the examples already :|), but honestly, for those that are not going to use it, even in the most extreme situation, then it shouldn't be forced onto them. I don't think you're understanding this part.

I also feel sorry for this poor guy for the situation that has befallen him and the student union did a great thing. On the same token, a student that is struggling financially with the already very hefty cost of college accommodation, books, HECS and living expenses may not want to add a few hundred dollars a semester to that if they don't want to. Who are you to say that s/he should have to fork out the cost to support others, when, in turn, this person may be put out because of it. This gives EVERYONE a choice.

Quote:
student union which you can choose to be or not to be a part of; if you pay your fees.

So, I got to choose to be a part of something that I was paying for anyway... great choice that is.

Quote from Seqo:
I know exactly what the topic is. And I've put my point of view in, stop preaching already.

I've accepted your ability to raise your view, so please do the courtesy of letting me raise mine. I'm not preaching, and I'm certainly not personally attacking you, so when I said that the discussion is getting off track it wasn't a comment directed at you. Although this question is...

If you were given the choice to pay tax, would you?

It works the same way. Whilst most people would probably prefer not to have the government any money, because of extortion, corruption or just general not recieving benefit of what the government does. However most people accept that tax, is a fee which is paid to recieve the general benefits for being a member of our society. Just because I don't have a car, and don't use the roads, doesn't mean that I shouldn't have to pay the local council money!

I would like to see someone please try to justify the payment of taxation, and at the same time say that a GSF is wrong, because the principles go hand in hand. And for all those Libertarians out there -here's a question for you - why aren't you actively lobbying your right to choose to pay taxes?

Sometimes I must admit, in the words of The Herd, "I just can't understand".

i get something out of my taxes. i get nothing out of the student union. that justified enough for you?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12572540-29277,00.html

Just goes to show not everybody agrees. And they SHOULD have the right to decide on what they pay for.

What I gotta love, is the reoccuring theme that somehow Liberal student support for VSU is an evil plot to stifle criticism of the government. It's never just because we have different opinions, it's always about Some Evil Plot To Take Over The World (TM).

Quote from "ahli":
Let's look at another example of where the Student Union helps people out. Imagine if you write and essay, and you get a mark which is completely bullshit, and you show it to a few friends, who also think the mark you recieved was bullshit. So you take it back to the lecturer, and the lecturer says that his mark is final and he's not reviewing it. The Student Union can appeal to the faculty to have the assignment reviewed by the faculty... what if you get an unfair dealing with the administration? You can contact the student union.

While a service such as that is useful, and in fact important - it's only a small fraction of where student unions spend their money (and indeed, a task the University could handle directly). There's alot more being financed that many students have no use or desire in paying for.

Quote:

I would like to see someone please try to justify the payment of taxation, and at the same time say that a GSF is wrong, because the principles go hand in hand. And for all those Libertarians out there -here's a question for you - why aren't you actively lobbying your right to choose to pay taxes?

Taxes are at best a necessary evil. There are some basic services such as police \ judiciary \ defense that are required to give society a peaceful foundation. While personally I'd like to see taxes (and indeed the role of government) reduced to the minimum necessary, I'm realistic and don't expect to see this happen any time soon.

Ahli, YGPM! (You've got a Private Message). :)

Seqo.

no aravi, we don't think you guys are out to control the world; you're just a bit misguided. with the implementation of VSU, students have the choice NOT to pay for their union fees, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that most students WON'T pay their GSF. we aren't the richest demographic out there, and hence, when given the chance to save a bit of dosh, we usually take it. this leaves us with a union starving for funds, and a whole host of other problems. let's break it down:

Quote from "paladin":
i get something out of my taxes. i get nothing out of the student union. that justified enough for you?

you don't get anything out of the student union? the SU steps in the ring for you every time the government tries to **** with the student populace. and believe me, they love to **** with us, because there's nothing conservative governments fear more than an educated, questioning, population. i won't go in depth on that subject here because 1) you won't read it, and 2) it's probably beyond you if your recent attempts at constructing an argument are any indication.
what it will come down to though is that when the government tries to increase HECS fees, the student body won't have an organisation capable of lobbying against the move. and when this happens, we are all going to have to pay dearly just to stay where we are. education is a ****ing right, but unfortunately increases in HECS fees will ultimately restrict the number of students going to university. it's already expensive enough as it is, and the way things are headed, you might not be able to provide your own kids with the opportunities that you had.

you may not see every single dollar you put into the university, but that's life. you pay taxes because you need the services the government provides. you don't always see the product of your taxes, but you know they're there. it's the same with CSU. these are the guys who stand up for your rights and take care of your needs as a student. if you've ever attended ANYTHING at university aside from lectures and tutes, odds are the student union has had a hand in either setting it up, or subsidising the costs of the endeavour so that you can save some money.

honestly man, if your so ****ing eager to save a few hundred dollars at the cost of an enjoyable and quality educational experience, you should piss off and get a job. from what i've read, you'd probably enjoy it more; just don't bitch about it when things start to get hard.

i didn't attend anything other than tutes or lectures, because i didn't want to. i'm glad you didn't go 'into depth' on the subject because frankly i'm sick of reading your collective hand-waving. the issue isn't if the student unions are good or bad things. the issue is that i should be able to choose between joining them and not. it's that simple. but please, by all means go back to your grandstanding about how the world is going to end because you happen to think some people will make the wrong choice.

Quote from "Illusions":
no aravi, we don't think you guys are out to control the world; you're just a bit misguided. with the implementation of VSU, students have the choice NOT to pay for their union fees, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that most students WON'T pay their GSF.

then they get none of the so-called benefits. where's the issue with that? if they choose not to join, and then want some of the benefits, they have noone to blame but themselves for not being eligible.

Quote from "Illusions":
we aren't the richest demographic out there, and hence, when given the chance to save a bit of dosh, we usually take it.

so you'd rather have a heavy standing there for you mugging every student on their way into campus and taking the money rather than asking for it?

Quote from "illusions":
let's break it down:

By all means, take it away Mc Hamm...^H^H^H^H Illusions

So far Im siding with the Libs as they haven insulted anyone personally. I have always taken a dim view of slanging and name calling in politics, it doesnt really have a place in my opinion.

Unfortunatley Ahli has referred to people here as LAN going Liberal Nerds, and also has tried to diminish the work that someone like El Presidente puts into running the Freedom LANS and the Liberal Club. I have never met El Pres, have never been to a LAN, but I do know how hard it is to try and keep any association going week after week especially if its an active one.

Go VSU

I don't think its only a fight for free choice though. It's a question of free choice and money. if it was a free, government subsudised student union, there'd be no complaints on this board at all. paladin makes a good point, as do others, that its their money and the choice to spend their money should rest in their hands. rightly so.

the real question is, will those union's who currently rely on those students money to perform their functions, suffer because of the lack of funds? will the same services be available? I guess only time will tell.

Now that's a better question Doyen. Personally, I think those that are doing good work and providing good services will survive. Those that aren't will die, which is probably for the best.

How is that Seqo.....

Some of the functions they perform are not revenue raising..
And when it comes to bean counters, they will just slash across the board with the reduced funding.

You trying to tell me that by removing money from these organisations they are going to get BETTER?

Has this ever happened in the history of mankind? :P

Erm, yes! By making them work for their money they will learn to become more effecient in the production of whatever their services are. This has happened a bajillion times in the history of mankind - why do you think everyone is jizzing all over free trade atm? Cause they realise that subsidising inefficient industries is a losing game. That's exactly what involentary unionism does - subsidise inefficient orgaisations. Haha, first year economics degree for the win!

They arent working for their money tard :)

They are allocated from a big pool of money that the union fee's and uni's put together.
The result will be less funding, less staff and less help.

In my first year that taught me how to program in assembler...that was useful....

i guess it is like the whole question of privatisation. The SU will have to make itself essential to the student body to survive..if it doesnt, then we didnt need it anyway. There are some areas of SU that will probly go no matter what, say like the second hand bookshop. Not really a essential imo.

Pollies have been talking this sort of shit up forever and they are still bitching at each other about it..and these are people 'in the know'. For me, I finished uni ages ago, but am back now doing a coursework masters. It is full fee paying so I am not really for any of the frilly bits of uni life that I have to pay extra for. Do I care about subsidised food or beer at uni? No, definitely not, why should I pay for someone elses lunch. I make my own lunch most days. Why cant other people do the same.

Then again, I never really understood the full mechanics of what the SU did anyway, the only time I ever saw them was when they were canvassing for votes.

Coco that little sig picture you got is wicked

Lurker's got it. If the SU provides a good service then it is a good idea to join, thus paying a student union fee. Terrific. So all the good Student Unions will still get funding from the student body.

However, as an example, the student union at CDU will have to certainly move it's arse and do something in order to encourage people to keep paying the union fee. As will other SU's which are taking money but not doing anything with that money that is in the interest of the students individually or as a whole.

I'm all for SU's as long as they are doing something useful for me, my friends and classmates. If i was participating in SU run activities or needed help from the union then I'd pay. But since I'm not, why should I be slugged a few hundred bucks for nothing.

As you pointed out Coco, the only problem I see is that, on the whole, SU's will receive less money... so costs of being a part of the union will probably increase to compensate. As said earlier, if they're doing the right thing, they'll get the funding. If not, they won't and I think that's fair.

I think I'll end my ranting here :) weeeeeeeee.

yep, thats a fair assumption. the only thing it leaves uncovered is when the bodies require excess funds to undergo large undertakings (such as was pointed out earlier). i.e. fighting against the government for student rights.

another hypothetical question of interest: if this does become vulantary, and these bodies are in a position where they are fighting for student rights, do they fight for everyone? or just those that pay them?

they fight for whatever is in their members interests. if that happens to coincide with the interests of non members, then non members get lucky. if its against the interests of non members, then non members better organise themselves to present their point of view.

heh, thats a whole can of worms in itself. if you don't have a body to fight for you, you have to create one to do it :D

Its all a good argument...minimum flames too :)

I thought I got value out of my SU when I was in Uni but im an old bugger and that was 10 years ago, things I assume have changed somewhat...

It is a national trend tho so i'm quite possibly just a fossil arguing sediment layers here :P

You know, I run a club, and thoroughly agree that it shouldn't be compulsary. I'm not a Student at NTU, nor do I have any intention on becoming one either.

The reality was that the university, in all it's diversity, really didn't cater for anything I was interested in or many other people... Which was a real shame. And when I see the funds used to stage protests against the discrimination of marijuana users, I not only feel ripped off, but also loose faith in the education system.

Too many people feel socially inclined to go to University, but do it for all the wrong reasons, at which point, my tax money goes towards these jaded people. And no I'm not talking about everybody, I'm talking about probably a large part of the number of Uni attendees, who feel the only reason to be at University is to drink and muck around with their friends.
I'm sorry, it's not, and shouldn't be associated with it.

Paladin, I'm one of the guys who run that Japanese animation club. Regardless of how you feel about our club, perhaps you should get a few facts straight.
The animation club, while run at the NTU, and abides by it's relationship with it, is in fact a seperate entity. In order to keep running at the NTU campus we were required last year to become a listed club and accordingly adhere to their rules. These rules we've always adhered to, bar one, which the liberal club fought to remove, and succeeded. That was to limit the number of external members available. In other words, for every 5 people in the club, only 1 was allowed to be a non student.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was either 80 or 90% must be enrolled at NTU in tafe or higher ed.

Now, every club that becomes part of the university, receives the option to use a university supplied cash fund, however, there are certain implications of using this fund, and that is, that all items pertaining to the club, become the property of the NTUSU. Naturally, this wasn't possible for us, so as far as we're concerned, while we run at the uni, we're don't hold the main formal tie with the SU.

Basically what I'm getting at, is that we don't take hand outs, everything done in the club, is out of our own pockets, at our own risk. This includes insurance, which the club pays itself since the recent fiasco with public liability.
The club still pays fees to use the auditorium, and if those fee's go up, we'll adjust as best as we can accordingly, while still trying to maintain a low price for entry.

This may include removing some pizza nights, we throw in from time to time, or other events, which we do have now and then.

Quote from CoCoBuckeTs:
They arent working for their money tard :)

They are allocated from a big pool of money that the union fee's and uni's put together.
The result will be less funding, less staff and less help.

In my first year that taught me how to program in assembler...that was useful....

I know. Now to get money they are going to have to provide services that appeal to people in order to get said people to give them money. Hence, they have to work for it instead of getting hand outs. This will encourage the organisations to be more efficient when they use their money. If a service is used, and people are willing to pay for it, it will continue to survive. Have some faith in the free market, you silly communist :P.

So what else does the SU do exactly? I suppose I am talking spcifically about the Darwin one here as is the one I am most acquainted with. In my experience the things I have seen the SU do are:

1. uni paper
2. gives out yearly diaries etc
3. demonstrates against anything that threatens the wellbeing of the SU
4. holds the odd barbecue
5. Has a subsidised gym membership

The things that have so far been raised as being important for students, say like supporting clubs and societies and helping them stay alive are just not happening. Take the roleplaying/wargaming club for instance, that has since moved off campus and is surviving fine without being at the uni, or as the previous poster pointed out the Japanese Animation Society or Liberal Club that receives no help from the SU either. Maybe if the SU involved itself in the day-to-day issues that these clubs face it mught have a little more support.

I know that in my day it did support some clubs strongly, but only one or two favourites like the engineers or legal societies. I think the general opinion then was not that these were bigger societies or anything, it was just that the pres was involved with these clubs..

CoCo posting here...Ryan didnt log out dammit :P

Hehehe Uber you leave my red card carrying friends out of this :P

I suppose my point was a lot of Uni functions cant get out there and make money, some can for sure as you said to appeal to people in a better way, but equally some cant and im afraid they will be the ones to suffer :)

When I was at uni about the same time as lurker the SU did the following from memory.

O -week
All the sporting clubs
Magic/Maelstrom club
Uni Pub partys weekly

Sure some of the Union members themselves were only in it for themselves, but that happens everywhere were politics are involved.

Engineers just had more parties and beer to make up for their lack of social skills or general weirdness :)

Quote from outofammo:
Engineers just had more parties and beer to make up for their lack of social skills or general weirdness :)

Ok, that's true :P

Quote from paladin:
i didn't attend anything other than tutes or lectures, because i didn't want to. i'm glad you didn't go 'into depth' on the subject because frankly i'm sick of reading your collective hand-waving.

...and i'm sick of debating political issues with the inept. maybe we can talk about this when you've grown a ****ing clue.

Quote:
the issue isn't if the student unions are good or bad things. the issue is that i should be able to choose between joining them and not. it's that simple.

so do you think taxes should also be voluntary? I honestly have no faith that the public in general - especially after the last election - has the the capacity to ensure that the essential systems that society needs are maintained on a voluntary payment basis. Ahli has already pointed out the voluntary ambulance levy fiasco in Queensland. i'm a pessimist, and hence i tend to view people as inherently greedy.
you are right on one thing though: this is isn't about good and bad. this is about maintaining a necessity that people take for granted.

Quote:
but please, by all means go back to your grandstanding about how the world is going to end because you happen to think some people will make the wrong choice.

and you can go back to your ignorant little bubble. i hear it's good being the lowest rung on the mental ladder; you don't have to think for yourself, and others do your fighting for you.

Quote:
then they get none of the so-called benefits. where's the issue with that? if they choose not to join, and then want some of the benefits, they have noone to blame but themselves for not being eligible.

it doesn't work that way. you can't have a union that discriminates according to who has paid and who hasn't. the unions protect the rights and lobby on the behalf of ALL students, and it's only right that all students should have to contribute to maintaining the system. if you didn't like the way your union was running things, you could have at least made an attempt to change things. instead, you'd rather keep your change, jeopardise the future of student unions accross Australia, and then scorn when others fight back.

Quote:
so you'd rather have a heavy standing there for you mugging every student on their way into campus and taking the money rather than asking for it?

yes.

Quote:
By all means, take it away Mc Hamm...^H^H^H^H Illusions
bite me.

In order for any other union to represent you, you have to pay a voluntary fee out of your weekly income. They will not represent you individually if you are NOT a member.

Why should any Student Unions be different? I chose to be a member of the SDA when I worked in retail. I couldn't, until now, choose to be a part of the SU or not.

Quote from Illusions:
so do you think taxes should also be voluntary?
no. but they're not the issue. they're not under discussion. the student union fee is. please don't obfuscate the issue by introducing irrelevant points. you may as well just stand there saying 'look at the birdy! look at the birdy!'

Quote from "Illusions":
I honestly have no faith that the public in general - especially after the last election
you have no faith because the majority seem to disagree with you? we reap what we sow, as the saying goes. we have this government because the majority wanted it. who are you to say that the majority are wrong?

Quote from "Illusions":
...has the capacity to ensure that the essential systems that society needs are maintained on a voluntary payment basis.
who are you to determine what is essential for me?

Quote from "Illusions":

i'm a pessimist, and hence i tend to view people as inherently greedy.

i have a similar lack of faith in my fellow humanity, except in my case i believe pretty much everone does what is best for themselves first, and others second, if at all. so you'll excuse me if i happen to think your little tanty is nothing more than a dummy spit at not getting what is best for you.

Quote from "Illusions":

you are right on one thing though: this is isn't about good and bad. this is about maintaining a necessity that people take for granted.

no, it's about letting people choose what is necessary for them. again with the obfuscation.

Quote from "Illusions":

and you can go back to your ignorant little bubble. i hear it's good being the lowest rung on the mental ladder; you don't have to think for yourself, and others do your fighting for you.

those without a point, insult.

Quote from "Illusions":

it doesn't work that way. you can't have a union that discriminates according to who has paid and who hasn't. the unions protect the rights and lobby on the behalf of ALL students, and it's only right that all students should have to contribute to maintaining the system.

no, it's only right that all students should be given the choice to contribute. you're not losing your union, it's just lost its guaranteed tax on education.

Quote from "Illusions":

if you didn't like the way your union was running things, you could have at least made an attempt to change things. instead, you'd rather keep your change, jeopardise the future of student unions accross Australia, and then scorn when others fight back.

i had better things to do with my time than deal with a bunch of unkempt tree loving hippies who would rather argue and blather about things out of some sense of self aggrandizement, than actually contribute anything meaningful to my 'university experience'. whatever the hell that is meant to be.

Quote from "Illusions":

yes.

The mafia called, they're looking to hire.

Quote from "Illusions":
bite me.

no thanks, i might catch something, lets say, a bad case of sour grapes?

setting aside all your grandstanding, your argument is simply this:

nobody should have the right to say no to paying union fees. nobody should be able to freely choose to join the union, or to not join. nobody should have that right, because they might say no.

i say to you sir; who the hell are you to deny me choice.

Quote from Seqo:
In order for any other union to represent you, you have to pay a voluntary fee out of your weekly income. They will not represent you individually if you are NOT a member.

Why should any Student Unions be different? I chose to be a member of the SDA when I worked in retail. I couldn't, until now, choose to be a part of the SU or not.

its different in the workplace. even if the union won't protect you (because you haven't joined), you've still other avenues you can seek to give you assistance.

the main difference here, is that the SU is the only buffer between you, and policy that affects you.

Well, there are other means to get a dispute sorted besides the Student Union... although, it may be slightly more costly and less efficient. There are those other avenues for those that choose not to be a member of the union.

Whilst a student union is almost the only buffer between you and the uni in regards to policy, SU's aren't always the right way to go to get an issue sorted. But that's my opinion and just adds to why I should be able to have a choice (I don't agree with a lot of the Student Unionism and what they choose to do in regards to issues in the wider world).

oh, I'm not arguing, I think you make some good points. just throwing in some questions, and trying to add a few scenario's to get more info :p

in point of fact, what will probably happen, is that if they do become voluntary the government will end up having to inject more funding into the universities themselves out of the taxpayers pocket.

reason being: some of those basic services, such as representation, mediation, etc. that the unions do provide to their members will not (or rather should not be) be available to those who aren't paying.

'students without rights' won't hold up long under public scrutiny, and it will be the taxpayer's dollar that will flood into the system to hold off the watchdogs. ;) then again, I'm more the cynic than most, maybe it'll all work flawlessly.

Quote from Seqo:
In order for any other union to represent you, you have to pay a voluntary fee out of your weekly income. They will not represent you individually if you are NOT a member.

Why should any Student Unions be different? I chose to be a member of the SDA when I worked in retail. I couldn't, until now, choose to be a part of the SU or not.

This isn't entirely correct seqo, the sda are the people that go in a negotiate pay issues on behalf of ALL workers in the companies they represent, not just the workers that are members of the union. As a worker of Woolies, Big W etc you are protected under the Broken Hill S.A and N.T agreement (In NT ofc) whether or not you choose to join the union.

EDIT: After re-reading your post I noticed that you did put individually so yes I guess you are right but it does illustrate the point that the union there just like the SU is in place to do work on behalf of the entire student body.

Yes that's right, but that's not all they do. And in just about any other situation (ie, individual - dispute with boss etc) the SDA will not protect you if you are not a member.

Doyen: I wasn't saying you were arguing.. sorry if it sounded like it :) And I wholeheartedly agree... if you are not a member of the SU you should not be getting the benefits provided by that. Even if those benefits are wide-ranging - ie, discounts on alcohol should only be to SU members... those that choose not to be should not get that discount. etc etc.

EDIT: cos james edited... bitch :P

Yeh, which is why I make the point that only members should be eligible for any wide ranging benefits that would normally encompass all students.

Maybe I'm optimistic, but I think all will be well in the world :)

Quote from Seqo:

Yeh, which is why I make the point that only members should be eligible for any wide ranging benefits that would normally encompass all students.

Realisticly though how would something like that be implemented I mean say the SU negotiates that hex fees aren't raised, then do only the members of the SU not have to pay the raised hex fees?? I can tell you if that was the case some people would be complaining very quickly.

Quote from paladin:
no. but they're not the issue. they're not under discussion. the student union fee is. please don't obfuscate the issue by introducing irrelevant points. you may as well just stand there saying 'look at the birdy! look at the birdy!'

i guess i overestimated your ability to match like and like. have you actually been reading the points other people make? the taxation analogy was used as it provides a relatively similar parallel. don't twist words and shirk the point, remo.

Quote:
you have no faith because the majority seem to disagree with you? we reap what we sow, as the saying goes. we have this government because the majority wanted it. who are you to say that the majority are wrong?

whoopdee-****ing-doo, the majority of australians agree with you that John Howard should be PM? and the majority of germans voted Hitler in. now i know you're going to be a ****tard and say "so what JH is like Hitler now you dcikhaed?" No, that's not actually the point i'm making. the point is that the majority don't always follow the correct path. think about it.
secondly, do you actually know how the australian voting system works? did you know that in '99/2000 the coalition held under 50% of the seats in the house of reps, yet they managed to retain government? not all seats are equal, and it is possible for a party to take government without holding more than 50% of the votes. i know this because i WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT, and whilst in theory a party must win 50% of the votes to take government, this isn't always the case. and just so you know, it's happened on a number of occasions.

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who are you to determine what is essential for me?

not what is essential for you, but students as a whole. maybe if you had a decent student union you'd be thinking a bit differently.

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i have a similar lack of faith in my fellow humanity, except in my case i believe pretty much everone does what is best for themselves first, and others second, if at all. so you'll excuse me if i happen to think your little tanty is nothing more than a dummy spit at not getting what is best for you.

no, i'll probably benefit in cost terms if i no longer have to pay my GSF, but i realise the importance of the role the student union plays. it's called taking in the larger picture.

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no, it's about letting people choose what is necessary for them. again with the obfuscation.

so students are only entitled to mediocre political representation, or - worst case scenario - none at all? how is that not necessary? i work for the government, and i refuse to sign an AWA because it removes my right to vote on the conditions of the certified agreement. although an AWA will fast-track my income, it also prevents me from having a say in my own rights. not just that, but every person who signs an AWA erodes the power of the union just a bit more. if it keeps going the way it is, the workers union (for my specific area of government) will be redundant within a decade. and you know what? already conditions in the federal public service are beginning to slide.

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those without a point, insult.

cry me a ****ing river. i'm not out to make any friends, and quite frankly i don't give a shit what you think about me. you haven't got a ****ing clue what you're talking about, and yet for some reason you find it necessary to spew your ill-informed opinion all over the ****ing web.

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no, it's only right that all students should be given the choice to contribute. you're not losing your union, it's just lost its guaranteed tax on education.

and what would happen to the government if taxes were made voluntary? i for one wouldn't pay a cent. things would turn to shit, and it's exactly the same here.

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i had better things to do with my time than deal with a bunch of unkempt tree loving hippies who would rather argue and blather about things out of some sense of self aggrandizement, than actually contribute anything meaningful to my 'university experience'. whatever the hell that is meant to be.

if you couldn't be bothered to get off your arse and change the way things are done, then you've got no grounds for complaint about how shit your union was.

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The mafia called, they're looking to hire.

amusing.

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no thanks, i might catch something, lets say, a bad case of sour grapes?

i can almost guarantee you that by putting my tool in your mouth you'd probably double your IQ.

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setting aside all your grandstanding, your argument is simply this:

nobody should have the right to say no to paying union fees. nobody should be able to freely choose to join the union, or to not join. nobody should have that right, because they might say no.

wow, you really are missing the point. are you honestly trying to misunderstand what is being written? while we're completely generalising about the other person's argument, yours is:

i want my money. i should have the right to keep my money, no matter what the consequences. in fact, **** the system, just give me my money.

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i say to you sir; who the hell are you to deny me choice.

and who the hell are you to support the dismantling of a tried and true system? who the hell are you deny the future integrity of the student union?

1 - On the Liberal Club.

Crikey, this thread's really taken off :)

For the sake of readability, I will try not to put everything into a single giant post, but will break it up a little.

Ahli, I'll give you credit, young padawan. You show excellent potential as a rabble-rouser and a muck-raker. It breaks my heart to see that you really do hate Liberalism. I don't believe what I do because I inherited it, I don't believe what I do because I'm in a party or a club or because my friends do. I believe what I believe because I have patiently weighed up the arguments and concluded that Liberalism is the best and only way to secure and expand prosperity and the fruits of civilisation.

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Congratulations on the University Liberal Club, El Pressie. I mean, it must be difficult to establish a Liberal club in perhaps the most pro-Liberal part of Australia - the Northern Territory [surplus sarcasm omitted for brevity]

I sense much anger in this one.

I don't think that the NT is the most pro-Liberal jurisdiction in Australia. The CLP is not particularly liberal. They far more closely resemble agrarian socialists and colbertian mercantilists. (Incidentally, if the CLP was this pro-Liberalism group you describe, why did they never introduce VSU? It was well within their power).

Despite active lobbying from myself and others, the CLP have viewed us alternately with suspicion and indifference. In the first days I was suspected to be a Liberal Party mole (I kid you not), sent to plant the seed of a Liberal Party NT branch. Then I was viewed with suspicion because I refused to join the CLP, even under considerable pressure (which continues to this day).

Now your fairly unsupported argument that the NT is some sort of redneck wonderland doesn't address the fact that universities are, these days at least, the natural homelands of leftism and statism. When Liberal students go out to campaign on campuses, they face the most hostile and unapologetic constituencies, competitors and environments which any supporter of the cause can face. We do it nationally, and locally, every day.

At CDU we've done the hard yards. As others in this discussion have said, when the all-wise Student Union decided to impose an oppressive constitution and affiliation process on Clubs and Societies, we were the ones who stood up and stopped them. Not the elected representatives. Not the Union staff. Not the university, not the NUS, not any politician or media flake.

We did it. We identified the issues, formed a plan, gathered support from other Clubs and Societies, and then we lead this united front to a successful campaign against Union stupidity. Bradley and Adam deserve thanks for the hard work they did on that campaign.

This returns me to a central point about the Liberal Club: we are a completely voluntary organisation. Yet we are more democratic, and better serve the interests of students, than the Union does. We sign members up because they recognise that we do good things, both for them and for students at large.

Furthermore, the University Liberal Club is an absolutely independent organisation. We owe nothing to anyone. We are nobody's creature. I have worked very hard to protect our independence from the CLP, from the Student Union, and unwated intrusions by hostile political activists interstate. I am proud of our accomplishments and I'm proud of the unwavering way we have stayed our course.

Be as sarcastic as you please. You only make a fool of yourself.